Thick Stamp Blastoise & Ninetails - "Normal" D w/ +15 Magenta Back?

So I noticed a really unusual 1st edition stamp variant I had never seen before on a Blastoise in this week’s Fanatics auction. It was so unusual I tried to actually add the card to my Blastoise collection, but the bidding got too rich for me :sweat_smile:. Still, I was / am still intrigued by the card…

Why was it unusual? Well, it appears to have a thick stamp…


But with a normal-sized D and a +15 magenta back!

For context on the +15 back, @OCDCompletist and @Nightvulture did some great work discovering that thick stamp base set holos all appear to have -15 magenta backs (while thin stamp base set holos all appear to have +15 magenta backs). This finding was backed up by many confirmations from the community here. (In simple terms, -15 = the red dots in the N on the backs line up with the “N”, +15 they don’t line u[). You can read more about this here: First editions or shadowless with stamps?.

This Blastoise doesn’t appear to follow that rule though. However, we have a potential clue in that the “D” is also normal-sized (same size as all the other letters) - showing that the trap (“outline”) error causing “small Ds” on all other thick stamp cards was not an issue here. I’ve only ever seen non-Machamp thick stamp holos have a small D in the stamp.

For context on the trap issue, @cataclysm80 recently shared a very interesting post on the history of 1st edition stamps gleaned from discussions with the WotC head typesetter at that time. In it, he mentions how the trap was fixed after the initial thick stamp print run, leading to normal “D” thick stamps for a period, before a new bolder “thin stamp” design was introduced.

However, until this moment I personally haven’t actually seen in person or in scans any shadowless holos (outside of the special case of Machamp) with thick stamps and a “normal D”. This Blastoise is the first I’ve seen, and also has a +15 magenta back (like thin stamp cards) to boot!

I combed through a large sample of all the other 1st edition base sales on Fanatics to get more high-quality scans, and I found only one other similar example with a normal D thick stamp and a +15 magenta back with this Ninetails:


So… my questions to everyone if you’ve made it to this point:

  • Have any of you seen other non-Machamp holos have a similar profile as this Blastoise and Ninetails? It seems extremely hard to find, but maybe I’m wrong about their rarity?
  • Do we think this is a case of thick stamps with the trap fix (where +15 back stock was used), but before a transition to the much bolder “thin stamps”? If so, could this have been just a very brief print run before WotC transitioned to thin stamps which explains the rarity?
  • Is this a misprint? The stamp appears to be on the blurry side for a 1st edition stamp, so is this just a thin stamp card where an issue with the ink led to it looking like a thick stamp card? (To me the difference is significant enough that this seems unlikely…)
  • Do we think this is actually a fake??? It has to be asked, although I will say the placement in the Blastoise and Ninetails seems to be pretty spot-on and I don’t see any obvious smoking guns (other than this being an exception to the thick stamp -15 back rule).

Cool Blastoise card.

I think it would be helpful if this thread was merged with the larger +15 / -15 1st Ed Base thread.

Is it just me or does the bottom left corner of the frame not really align to the middle of the “T”?

Rosette pattern doesn’t look off but it could also be that someone took a shadowless (non 1st edition) and added a stamp :man_shrugging:

ah-shit

5 Likes

Definitely could be a fake stamp, psa have graded fake stamps before. I’ll have to look at some pictures and really compare before I jump to conclusions, but I would be very skeptical of that Blastoise. If it is something with the trap, Tavis would have a lot more knowledge about those stamp variations than I. Sadly, I don’t own any first edition foils to truly compare for myself

The only other difference that I’ve noticed is the color of the “HP”. Thick stamps with the -15 backs have a different shade of red than the +15 backed foils. Its subtle but all ive been able to find

https://www.ebay.com/itm/157150121669

Give PSA graders a raise!

(This took me less than 30 seconds on eBay to find lol)

That stamp looks sus

Old cert too

Is nothing sacred?

Are you serious🤨

Ill never understand why people value a psa 10 for this reason. Would they have had an error designation back then?

No baby I don’t like the thick “D” — they scare me. I prefer normal sized “D”.

Damn, it’s so bad :disguised_face:

Ah ok, happy to do so, but not quite sure how to do that?

Haha yeah, that eBay example is something… The stamps on this blastoise and Nine Tails at least gets the placement right imo

I think I’ve seen cases with similar alignment that were authentic (or at least very likely authentic), so it’s within the “expected range” for position imo at least.

It’s not a “perfectly” clean stamp though, the wateriness / blurriness is what seems a bit off (so you unfortunately can’t make out the angles in the “O” which is always a good sign of a real stamp)… although I feel like there are lots of examples of imperfect but genuine stamps where ink is smudged etc.

Also, there happens to be a neighboring cert to the Blastoise for a thick stamp Alakazam that also has the unusual “normal D” (https://www.psacard.com/cert/28897527/psa). No scan… but the card actually shows up in an Instagram post - I just googled the cert and got lucky heh. Here’s what the Alakazam stamp looks like:

I dont trust it, would trust the -15 backs over those stamps until it was in my hand to authenticate. I just dont feel its coincidence that theyre thick stamps look a bit off and theyre on +15 backs.

Just to put it in perspective, between thick and thin stamps and them relating to the backs have been confirmed on over 200 cards and ive yet to have anyone say a thin stamp is - or a thick stamp is +.

PSA and CGC are both in it for the money and i dont doubt someone unknowingly couldve graded that blastoise and ninetales. They got paid and nobody called it out.

Starting to wonder if it’s actually a thin stamp and the resolution on the front is making it look thick

Interesting thought, but what if the +15 big thick D was even far as to shift but otherwise confounds and doesn’t warrant small D. Whereas, the perception of thin vs thick here to for doesn’t, yet printers including it backwards strongly do like? Worth considering.

The inner sections of the E are rounded instead of perfectly square. That definitely seems concerning. How common is it to see what I want to call a “saggy” E like this?