Very realistic Charizard Base fake?

General
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Hey everyone! Thanks ahead of time for your input!

I have posted this on reddit for opinions, have gotten mixed opinions, and finally someone pointed me to this forum that they highly recommended I get an opinion here from and I quote “top collectors”.

So I bought this charizard on ebay, and it immediately fail’s the easiest test for authenticity (so it seemed) when I examine it in person. It does not have the clearly visible black line sandwiched between 2 white layers when you look at the edge.

I followed this up with the light test (i used a strong flash light instead of a phone light like many on reddit I think are used to, so they call my alakazam and venusaur fake because I forgot to add this disclaimer). Anyway the charizard clearly seems to fail that immediately as well.

Text on charizard is bolder/less crisp looking than compared to my known real base set cards.

Charizard lacks the “pitted” texture that is visible on 99% of my base set cards when viewed in light glare (minus some cards which I now have to question their authenticity, including 2 holos Ive had in my pokemon card binder/box for 20+ years).

I have weighed charizard, venus, and alakazam, all weigh .078-.079 oz, or 2.25g.

Apparently rosette patterns are good to look for, which this Charizard seems to have. Though I did browse this forum and found a microscopic comparison of a Machoke (fake) vs a Ditto (real) Pokemon Cards Under A Microscope #3 - Fake EX Power Keepers Machoke by a user here “Rattle” that prooves what I already assumed, new counterfits can accomplish copying the rosette of cards.

Also to the above video, a yellow edge with dots printed on it, is an indication of a fake, which is present on this Charizard.

I believe this charizard to have a blue core, light shined through it in a similar manner to a ponyta from my base set collection that I also questioned its authenticity due to the lack of pitting texture on it, so I tore it in half and it has a blue core in it. And the more i closely look at charizards edge, it does look to possibly/probably have some kind of middle layer, be it less obvious from the edge as every other card I have (except ones in question of their authenticity like ponyta).

I know it probably seems like I have already answered the question myself, this is quite likely a fake, but I still wanted to share with this community and have some others with more knowledge weight in.

In my research on card composition since buying this card, I have become very interested in the topic in general, besides wanting to return this card if its fake. I have bought 3 jewelers loupes and a black light flash light for starters to examine cards from here on out (they have not come in yet)

This reminds me, I had read that counterfiets [can/do?] react different under UV light, hence buying the black light, I do have a black light I was able to shine on charizard last night, and it looks EXACTLY the same color as any other holo I compared it to, front and back.

Also, I read on a CGC article Cgc charizard base set 2 error article, that Base Set 2 Holo cards DID use a blue core layer, which is part of what has spurred me on to not completely counting this cards out, for curiosity wondering if there was ever a base set run that was similar, and I imagine possible, if it had been done for base set 2. And since I do have 2 holos that have the exact same composition/look/everything as this Charizard, that as I said have been sitting in a box for 20+ years, and I kind of doubt that counterfieters were making fakes of this quality back than.

Sorry for the very long post, I wanted to include as much information as possible and ask the questions Ive been wondering to people who are as interested in collecting/knowledge as I am.

And I can provide diff pics of Charizard, and the other 2 holos (mewtwo and raichu) that are either fake, or from this weird run of base set if people wanted to take a look. I do find it mind boggling if they made holos that look like the real that long ago

Holo
Video of me waving flashlight over holo for examination: link



Card sheen

Light Test


Text Comparison



Energy Crispness comparison

Looking For Middle Layer

Rosette (taken with 8x phone zoom)

**Border

Charizard**

Charmeleon (known real from personal collection)

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@dopout, looks a bit weird, I’ve seen charizards that look similar, so don’t think it’s fake. It might be easiest to just send to cgc for quick authentication

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@kingboo64, I actuallyed subscribed to CGC the other day with this intention but have been on the fence about blowing the money in the case that it is fake. I’m yet again leaning toward sending it

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Your card is completely fine. I’ll buy it from you for fair market if you’re not happy with it :blush:

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@jkanly, You’re seriously that confident?

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Yep! You’re very welcome to send me a price :blush:

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@dopout, jkanly is correct–it is real.

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hey @dopout, I just joined this forum yesterday for the same question, and although I’m here to seek out people more qualified than I am’s advice, the card looks fine to me FWIW. Great investigation and evidence provided!

@jkanly, you seemed pretty confident here - would you mind check out my recent post? I just bumped an older thread of someone else asking about their shining gyarados. I am inquiring about the same card. Curious what you think. So far someone else on this forum said probably real, 2 people on the CGC forum said very likely real, and about 2 dozen people on Facebook said “definitely fake” lol.

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Regarding your gyarados: a friend had an English one that had similar issues, your shining Gyarados is probably fine

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Well holy crap… I did not expect this at all…

Anyone mind elaborating on the lack of pitted texture and black mid layer (seemingly replaced with a blue layer instead) ?

Genuinely curious for knowledge sake, it would explain why i have like I had said, about a booster pack worth of cards all like that, and 2 other holos. I presume a late run of Base set with different quality prior to it going out of print at my best guess. I’m sooo curious.

Thanks for the news everyone! I feel much better now knowing that I have a genuine base charizard that childhood me always wanted, and didnt get jipped :grin:!!

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@dopout, Glad to see you posted it over here. Awesome that you did tons of research on it as well and putting it through a lot of tests on your own. Glad to see that people seem to lean on it being real, even with the strangeness and hope to learn more about why it has some weirdness.

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I see nothing unusuaL
Contact our fake expert rattle for explanation.

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Phew, yeah I’ve searched far and wide for an answer to this, because of my ~booster box worth of base set cards, cards from base set theme decks etc, 99% have the clear pitting under a glare. And more-so what scared me was that in videos/articles/forums a specific thing to look for was a “smoother” card which points to a fake, which this clearly is. Nice to hear its something that they did legit wind up putting out as a variance in base set quality at some point

Thanks for the input! :grin:

I’d def like his input/explanation on the black core missing, thicker text (which by even his comparison of the machoke to ditto, is an indication of fake), and rosette pattern printed onto the yellow border (also an indication he uses for the machoke to be fake).

I’m super interested in card composition/history now. The info is so scarce, but as I found the cgc article about base set 2 holos using a blue core, that opened the door in my mind for so much variation in prints that people probably dont know/talk about, as the easily accessible information for card composition on every video/article is “look for black line/black core if you rip card in half”. Never anything about the blue. I think its so cool!

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I’ve looked at the Gyarados card you posted and don’t see anything that jumps out. Your Gyarados card is supposed to have that gloss on the front. @azulryu gave good advice!

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