I’m tired of saying the same thing.
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ok
Looks to me like CGC authenticated it and they (likely) have access to more knowledge, equipment, and expertise than I.
I believe I heard they’ll authenticate FPO and match print too. None of them are cards nor series that I’ll be collecting. To me they aren’t “authentic” in that they were never awarded at tournaments, events, or alongside promotional products nor obtainable from booster packs.
What doe authentic even mean? If matchprint or FPO can pass than this surely can I’d say. To me they shouldn’t be put in a slab, but CGC can do as they wish. Similar with matchprint as Charlie said people can feel free to try and replicate it and try to get their own cards slabbed and make CGC look pretty silly while likely pocketing a decent bag for the trouble (in potential CGC payouts, not saying someone should fake and sell these)
Just like collector zord this will and already is hurting more butts than if it was any other Pokemon.
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I don’t see an issue with grading an inked card if they specifically label it as inked. How is it different from PSAs ‘altered’ grade? Or is it because they still give it an 8 grade?
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I think things have chilled out a bit and I’d like to get my opinion on record as we had a fun argument on the discord over this.
There are two different things that we are talking about here which are connected, but not as much as people seem to think. The first is the debate over where this card falls on the authenticity spectrum. And yes, it is a spectrum. You’ve got stuff like main-set release cards on the “fully authentic and verifiable” end, stuff like oricas and Chinese bulk GX on the “totally and completely fake” end, and cards like Prerelease Raichu, FPO, Collector Charizard, cardhouse Gold Star Horde, Matchprint, Staff Shellos, distributor promos, etc. all somewhere in the middle. They may be real, but they may not be verifiably real to the level of main-set releases. And some may be more verifiably authentic than others. I’d certainly say that Prerelease Raichu is less verifiable than something like FPO cards. The second is less a debate on this actual card and more on CGC’s threshold for authenticating and encapsulating a card. Giving this card all the benefits of the doubt, and fully believing the original owner’s story, this card is at best a test print or significant error with zero documentation, provenance, or other verification. If CGC is willing to authenticate cards that are on the “authenticity spectrum” like this Charizard, will they grade other cards like FPOs, matchprints, or, if submitted, Prerelease Raichu? And, more importantly, should they be authenticating these things? This is a very legitimate debate to have as things like the “authenticity spectrum” are very difficult to objectively flesh out and personal opinions play a large role.
I think we are all of the opinion that PSA is too strict with what they will and won’t accept. No damage Ninetales, no rarity Venu/Raichu, and other cards should be authenticated. However, we are now seeing what exactly accepting error cards looks like. We start to get some of those cards where the provenance (and authenticity) is a lot murkier than no damage Ninetales or the no rarities. So then we get into another debate over which errors are the “verifiable” errors and which ones aren’t. A lot of people use a slippery slope argument and before you know it we’re authenticating blastoisebargains’ custom Chorizords (help support a single dad!), but this is logically fallacious. The important thing is that there is actually a method for authenticating these cards and for distinguishing a “legitimate” card from an “illegitimate” one. Right now, it appears that CGC’s machine authentication tests are their standard. I’d be very interested to know more about these, but they are proprietary so that’s unlikely.
One thing that I’ve previously mentioned and that a lot of people in the hobby don’t get is that the authenticity spectrum is real. Something like this is the natural consequence of a grading company moving to be more inclusive. Whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing is something that’s up for debate and I don’t think you can really come up with an objectively correct answer on.
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You’re right. We should all accept that this card is real. It makes total sense…
Clearly during the card stock process the two rolls of paper were getting their graphite layer and somehow, one sheet got a different treatment. Now we can speculate all we want one this and all these speculations are completely viable.
A) the sheets were produced by a third party that also produces a more flimsy graphite layer and when they accidently shipped WotC that one sheet.
B) the graphite was running low at the very end leaving a smaller layer than normal, you would think that quality control would see this, but not this day.
C) god.
Now that we’ve established that it’s entirely possible, neh probable. Well then take our journey to the foil treatment of the card. Where we just happen to find, there wasn’t any foil treatment. Yes, not only did this card no have a proper graphite layer, but it is also missing it’s foil treatment. Now some might be skeptical here, but don’t you worry it’s a very simple explanation. See blind Billy was working this shift, and blind Billy is, as you might guess, blind. See a sheet fell off the non foil rack and Billy was tasked to pick it up and put it on the correct pile. Don’t ask why they sent Billy to do this job when there’s a bunch of able bodied individuals more capable of doing this task. They’re a very progressive company at WotC and they believe Billy isn’t effected by his condition.
Now normally Billy would have felt the different layers and determined which pile had a foil treatment applied to it, but not only is Billy blind, he’s also highly efficient and he knows that there’s a 50/50 chance he’ll get it wrong and Billy likes those odds. Those seconds add up.
Now we have the perfect scenario for this card to not only be missing a holofoil layer, but to also be without the proper graphite layer. Now all we need is for quality control to miss the entire 120 holofoils that would have been on this sheet. Do they do it? We’ll here’s the beauty, they don’t. It slips right past them like a greased up pig on it’s way to the troft.
Well now we have the issue of 120 of these cards in circulation. How do we explain why nobody has seen any of the other magic cards that had improper graphite layer-no foil treatment-that are on the run from WotC law. Well, I’ll tell ya here. This is the best part of the story. You ready? Those 120 cards are rumored to still be out there. *looks over shoulder to make sure nobody is listening in* But here’s the secret. They’re base set 2 and nobody cares about base set 2 so nobody ever going to find them.
Think about it, who wants to open light packs of Base Set 2? It’s the perfect crime.
I DARE ANYONE TO FIND A FLAW IN THAT STORY!
There’s clearly some aspects that point towards it being legit as well as fake. I agree the lack of foil AND the graphite layer is very suspicious as well the other cards from the theoretical sheet that haven’t shown up. Whats your counter argument for the fact that the other than the lack of a graphite layer, the card in all other ways seems legit. The ink and card stock, from what I can tell based on this thread, are identical to a legit card. I personally don’t think this was just a card that just got passed QA and was pulled from a pack but the aspects of the card that seem legit don’t seem to have an explanation if the card is fake.
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It’s just a high quality fake… We’ve seen them before.
We’ve seen a fake Pokemon card before with perfect ink and paper that can pass an examination from a company that authenticates multi million dollar items using high end equipment? And these master counterfeiters tried this with Base Set 2 instead of literally anything else?
People are less likely to scrutinize base set 2. If they had tried this with a 1st base holo it never would have been slabbed.
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It seems the only thing that gave the card being not being authenticate to those who got to hold it at Worlds like scott was the light test and the card being flimsy which would both be explained by the lack of the graphite layer. They didn’t mention the ‘feel’ of the good being off which is a good indicator of high quality fake cards or anything about the ink being off, unless I missed that.
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The lack of holo persuades me personally this was completely different cardstock a la match print. Not “WOTC card stock where they forgot to add the graphite layer AND the holo layer”. Simplest explanation, easily checks out, very reasonable a factory would test a print sheet on cheaper stock. As for “where are all the others???” I’m sure some may surface in years to come but I’d expect most are in childhood binders and will never be “discovered” as errors, just like every other Base 2 common card.
If you truly believe CGC is grading fake cards I’m happy to buy your graded CGC cards you now have buyers remorse for a full 50% of market value.
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It was mentioned just not here. 
Really makes me wonder what parameters CGC used that determined it was authentic of it seemed so obviously faked to seasoned collectors that handled it. I really wish they’d release a video showing the process.
I don’t have CGC cards and I’m afraid you know nothing about what you speak.
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No offense to people who have been around in the hobby their whole lives or decades, most of us here on e4 can get a “feel” for a fake card almost instantly and it’s almost always a sure bet, but the whole point of things like examining the ink dot pattern beyond what’s available to the naked eye is because shining a flashlight for a minute at worlds, contrary to popular belief, is not the be - all - end - all for confirming card legitimacy.
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Want to buy my seaside property in Nebraska?
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No one has confirmed the legitimacy. No technology is going to explain why the card lacks a layer.
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You can print a Pokémon card sheet file in a WOTC contracted printing press on things other than WOTC Pokémon card stock. It’s not like a high res file only works with a specific stock and self implodes otherwise.
Anyway it’s clear no one’s mind is going to be changed on this and people are just going to keep being snippy myself included.
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Just tongue and cheek summarizing this thread
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