I digged through some of your past posts and came across this:
So your giving theoretical speculation, but Rusty who talked to a production manger gave us the information that Wizards had their counts wrong with 1st edition stamps. Which could inline with your Theory 1. But that would further confirm the take that shadowless was intended for unlimited release.
Unless your revisionist comment was with which is rarer, at which point again nobody can confirm either way.
Maybe I should have done all my diging at once, because now it feels like I’m talking to myself here. Here’s a post about Gene who’s mentioned in the post referenced above.
If anyone wants to read that old thread here’s the link www.elitefourum.com/t/shadowless-vs-first-edition-base/19077/1
First of all, if anyone remembers I provided the information to find Gene.
Not much difference in my earlier and later descriptions. In my scenario #1 Shadowless would likely represent only ~ 10% to 20% of 1st edition. Print overruns might be as little as 10% if success was uncertain, or as much as 20% under more favorable conditions. WOTC has always been cheap and unwilling to trash any more product than was absolutely necessary (if you don’t believe me, investigate the true story of MTG alt. 4th), so it wouldn’t have been more than 20%.
In my scenario #2 WOTC realized they had a huge success. They already had a relatively large 1st edition run (orders of magnitude larger than Alpha/Beta in MTG) and were simply trying to fill a gap until the previously scheduled Unlimited print run could be manufactured and distributed. Given that they were already preparing a massive distribution of Unlimited base, they would have only reprinted a minimum amount to cover the gap. As a rush job they would have been limited in packaging supplies. As I remember it, the “gap” of no product amounted to about a 4 week period between when 1st edition sold out and Unlimited became widely available. Shadowless filled a tiny portion of that gap. Given that 1st edition was well planned, in this scenario sneaking in another print run might allow Shadowless to be up to half the size of the original 1st Edition run.
I agree with Gene that many of the shadowless cards were played, just as 1st edition cards were initially played, so finding them in the highest conditions is tough. But even the played cards, especially the Charizards, would be still around. I know a lot of kids who stopped playing and stuffed all their cards away wherever their old stuff went. With the renewed popularity since Pokemon Go all sorts of old collections are being brought back into circulation. If there were originally a ton of shadowless there should now again be a ton of shadowless.
I disagree with Gene that many shadowless cards were selectively destroyed. Why would people destroy them? Charizard is and always was the ultimate card in the game. The Unlimited cards (and the Shadowless cards as well) jumped to $30, $40 even $50 in 2000. The 1st Edition Charizards quickly jumped well above $100. This was huge money in a game dominated by pre-teens. Of course all WOTC Pokemon prices dropped after ~ 2002 as popularity waned for a time.
I know Gene struggled for many years to differentiate “Shadowless” sets from Unlimited sets. For perspective, between 2003 and 2008, when I would check in on Ebay auctions, Unlimited sets would often fail to reach $100. 1st Edition sets in nice shape might reach $300 to $400. Shadowless sets would only get ~ $120 to $130.
Because of the original Pokemon cards popularity, there were some base set forgeries that came out in 2000 and 2001. They included both stickers and actual cards (out of Southeast Asia or Australia). They were found in large quantities on the East Coast, especially at beach resorts. These made the news, and there was a coordinated effort to find and destroy them. But they were not Shadowless.
Since my original E4 conversation I have spoken to the long time collectors and dealers I knew from back in the early 2000s. None of them remember Shadowless cards being discarded by anyone, any more than Unlimited cards were discarded. All of Pokemon rose and fell. I spoke with two dealers who accumulated shadowless cards for me, and neither can remember any cards (other than the stickers and the easily recognizable fakes) being destroyed. But we are East Coast, so perceptions might be different.
As for the above assessments, I spent 12 years as technical staff (and ultimately Technical Director) in print facilities. Not for Carta Mundi, and not for Wizards, but for similar facilities. I am and have been an expert reference for factory card defects in a few MTG forums.
I’m still not sure what you’re referring to when you said revisionist history. That’s what I want to be clarified. If it’s just speculation into print numbers I don’t care to fight that battle as I never gave a definitive answer nor would I be able to.
The idea that Shadowless wasn’t known shortly after Unlimited Base was released.
It wasn’t a huge topic of discussion, since 95%+ of Pokemon card collectors were very young players, and they didn’t care. An Unlimited card played the same as a Shadowless card which played the same as a 1st Edition card.
It’s not like wotc came out and said these are shadowless. Shadowless is completely a collector term, I’m not even sure it was the standard at the beginning. I couldn’t comment on that. That’s what I’m referencing when I say it’s not a thing. It’s like no rarity cards, people were calling no rarity, 1st edition, no symbol, etc. It only became no rarity because that’s what we were able to get PSA to label it as.
Yes, there were people who saw the difference between the unlimited and shadowless. Most did not as you mention many times, you have multiple quotes where you’re mad at people for not sending the correct card. I would be interested to know what terminology was used back in the day, and when shadowless got mainstream.
I was the first one I am aware of to use the term. I used it in my initial card disputes with dealers (within a few months after Unlimited was released), and discussed it in the few Pokemon collector forums that were around. One of the forums was an AOL chat room, while the other was an IRC group. I e-mailed Gene on the subject since he was an Ebay seller of sets (a very small group at the time) and I was a huge buyer of both Pokemon and MTG. This was before Gene started offering Shadowless sets.
Some of the dealers I tried to purchase Shadowless cards from subsequently used the Shadowless term in their website and Ebay offerings, placing a premium of 20% to 50% over Unlimited cards. Gene started offering full sets on Ebay using the term. For the first few years that was about it. The dealers dried up as the game’s popularity waned. But more importantly, over that period of time there was no popular alternate name.
During the time when Pokemon was less popular Gene was the lone beacon carrying the torch. I moved on to assemble a massive MTG collection, and for a time was the Admin on the Magic Library (now MagicLibrarities) website.
PSA was late to the game. I don’t remember when they first graded a Shadowless Pokemon card. I doubt it was one of those initial 11 cards they received in 1999. Or the handful they received in the next few years. My speculation is that their “experts” were familiar with the term Shadowless from Gene’s Ebay auctions or from West Coast Pokemon dealers who knew the term. Given that they made some early mistakes, formalization may have been a hasty response to someone who knew they had a Shadowless card and were unhappy when the label didn’t reflect that.
@garyis2000 can give insight into the PSA shadowless label.
I’m a huge shadowless fan. thanks for sharing all these amazing anecdotes from way back. welcome to e4!