50,000 for a base set unlimited charizard that they wont even bother to grade pardon me?
is PSA seriously hyping this up???
9 Likes
So basically they are adverting $49,950 for a shout-out on Logan Paul’s Twitter and Instagram account (& a $50 marked and damaged unlimited zard). 
2 Likes
Fortunately, you don’t have to choose. You can just stay out of all this crap.
3 Likes
Good way to look at it.
People get so worked up about what someone else is doing that doesn’t really affect them.
It’s really very easy - if people dont like the concept, dont pay the money. If you dont like the content, dont watch it.
Life becomes much easier if you stop giving things that wind you up the energy, and only engage with what you like.
10 Likes
I think the video was really cool, the production of it is insane!
Nice to get a glimse in how the deal was setup. Congrats to all people involved!
4 Likes
Anybody follow the offering? I don’t have an account, but I’m curious how the $5m asset performed in this market.
Thanks!
3 Likes
Wow now that you put it that way it’s even worse!
I like how he always includes his buddies in the whole process and you can tell they are all just like “WTF is this guy doing?” every single time. Cracks me up.
2 Likes
that video was actually really awesome right up until we dipped our toes into literal hell at the end.
People get so worked up about what someone else is doing that doesn’t really affect them.
It’s really very easy - if people dont like the concept, dont pay the money. If you dont like the content, dont watch it. Life becomes much easier if you stop giving things that wind you up the energy, and only engage with what you like.
I do generally agree with this sentiment, but I also think it’s very important to bust it wide when you see shit like this. This is something that could seriously burn many people and potentially damage the hobby altogether. Regardless of whether I am personally affected by it, I think speaking up on shady dealings is the right thing to do, even if thinking about it gives me the itis
9 Likes
Hey everyone! My name is Avik Sengar. I am the community manager for Liquid MarketPlace. If anyone has any direct questions regarding LMP, the Illustrator, or anything else, feel free to tag me or ask me anything at all. I’ll also be responding to comments I see here. If anyone needs proof of who I am, the easiest way is to join the LMP Discord, @ me, and I’ll confirm that this is my account. Thanks!
@pfm Hey that’s awesome you’re so close by! The Illustrator is unfortunately at the Goldin/Collector’s Universe vault, not in office haha. But feel free to come by! If you’d actually like to come in and meet the team, message me on the Liquid MarketPlace Discord server and let’s set something up!
2 Likes
Hey, actually we can’t just change the ToS. Legally there is a waiting period (I believe 60 days but I’m not sure what the exact time is) which starts after we give notice to all users about the incoming change.
@ripguyfawkes Hey, editing this comment since I can’t post anymore. Quick replies to your four main points from above.
- Liquidmarketplace announces that the needed majority ownership for a guaranteed successful buyout is lowered from 80% to 60% for the coming weekend. You didn’t want to ever sell your share of the card so you bought 21% of all tokens, but now you must panic-buy another 20% just to survive the coming weekend.
We can’t edit ToS like that so that isn’t a possiblity. Legally we have to give users ample time to prepare after giving notice about an upcoming change.
- Liquidmarketplace changes the rules as in 1., but they don’t inform you. They just change the Terms of Use overnight. You wake up and see all your tokens gone.
Same reply 
- Remember that the tokens are erc-20 based? This means you can transfer them out of their platform to any wallet you desire. Let’s say you want to transfer your tokens to your personal metamask wallet but then your pc breaks and you forgot your seed phrase. Boom, your wallet is gone and so are your tokens.
Right now you cannot transfer the tokens off of the platform. Losing tokens is a concern which is one of the reasons why that functionality doesn’t exist yet.
- Even worse, let’s say someone nefarious buys a big part of tokens of one item, and then sends all those tokens to a burner wallet (one that can receive tokens, but never send them back). What now? Is the item suddenly incomplete? Or is it still 100% complete but x% are inaccessible for all eternity, basically making a buyout impossible and locking the card in the vault forever? Or are the remaining accessible tokens considered the new 100%? But then the price of the item (the price per token) would suddenly be inflated for a completely illegitimate reason (not because of demand but because of market manipulation). Liquidmarketplace could then create new tokens to counteract the burning, but by doing so they completely delegitimize themselves.
Same here, this isn’t possible ATM. If it ever becomes possible, we will absolutely have measures in place to avoid this. We are a fully registered business - we can’t just make rules up on the fly like a crypto project could. Manipulating the markets on our platform by adjusting the token supply isn’t something we can legally do, nor something we would do.
The main goal behind Liquid MarketPlace is to extend the ability to individuals to participate in the buying and selling of extremely valuable assets. We perceive a need for this in the current collectibles market because high-end items traditionally perform better than low end, and we want to give people the opportunity to involve themselves in those markets - if they would like to. As well, in the near future, we will be listing real estate on the platform. Consider collectibles as a stepping stone to those types of assets. We are actually a registered business that abides by all laws regarding what we do, and we can’t just change our minds about things like the ToS. Quick googling will also show that we have raised money via share sales. Delegitimizing ourselves after that would of course have extreme legal and monetary consequences.
Again, any questions please PM me here or on Discord 
Thank you all!
1 Like
So far, 26% of the full value has sold.
–
Couple of edits to reply to points I’ve seen.
@0ean Logan does not retain full ownership rights. Every item on LMP is stored in the Goldin/Collector’s Universe vault and LP, nor anyone else, can’t just take them out.
@enigma You can sell your ownership at anytime on our MarketPlace without waiting for any other owners to sell (the 80% vote is only to send the card to auction at Goldin). It’s a peer-to-peer MarketPlace, so its based on buys and sells of our users.
@eeveeteam I mean, generally 1/1s that are at the “top” of the market (like this card) are pretty recession proof unless the owner needs to liquidate. So if users who have ownership are willing to liquidate for an 80% loss, that’s on them. You can sell your ownership at anytime based on what buyers are available on our peer-to-peer MarketPlace. Based on all of our current items, a small minority is always willing to liquidate but the large majority of owners keep their ownership off the Market (or set Limit Sells at where they’d take profit). Just like all collectibles, buying cards is most often a waiting game.
@ripguyfawkes Yes we do freeze accounts that breach our ToS. This is (so far) just for lying about age and attempting credit card fraud.
We limit the amount of tokens users can buy for our monthly Mini Drops (valued usually around ~$10k) because we want everyone to have a chance to participate! You can then buy as many as you’d like on our MarketPlace after the Initial Offering fills. We also will not just randomly change the values of the tokens. Of course that would ruin any credibility the company has - there’s no reason to do that. We’d be liable to shareholders and investors, as well as likely legally in the hot seat also.
Yes buyouts require 80%, but we have measures in place so that someone who owns 80% of the tokens cannot just get the other 20% for free. That would be a huge issue. Everyone can vote, and the 80% majority does accept the buyout, but that’s the same as every other company in this industry. If it was 100%, nothing would ever be bought out.
The last point you make in your comment is also pretty standard for almost every ToS for any company in any industry.
@connorc We are regulated. We are a registered business with real shareholders and investors. Not an unregulated crypto project.
2 Likes
Hi, I see you’re located at University and Dundas. I work about a 4 minute walk away. If I stop by can I look at and/or touch the illustrator?
I’m joking but also partially serious 
6 Likes
Thanks for the reply. Would you be able to comment on LMP’s fee structure. I ended up creating an account to see the Illustrator activity and realized it’s still under the initial offering period. After looking into the platform and considering the fees to deposit money, buy the asset and eventually sell, it seemed like 10%+ was going out the door. Many investors hope for less of a return in the stock market and right out of the gate, our investment is taking a decent haircut prior to any performance. These factors were a deterrent to depositing money and participanting in the Illustrator offering. Could you expand on the fee schedule and the rationale behind them? Thanks!
12 Likes
Hi Avik, thank you for replying to us here and for your willingness to answer our questions (especially the more skeptical ones). I want to take you up on your offer and ask some questions:
-
You said that you can’t just change the ToS and that there is a waiting period, but you don’t know what exact time it is. Would it be possible for you to find it out? Also, does ToS equal ToU (as your website only refers to Terms of Use).
-
You said that currently it’s not possible to transfer any of your tokens outside of the liquidmarketplace platform. Am I right to assume that this functionality will come eventually (as your faq currently even states that "our fractionalized ownership or “Portion” of a collectible is represented by an ERC-20 digital asset that exists and is transferable on the Ethereum network. " If it becomes possible, what are the measures you will take to prevent someone from manipulating the system (e.g. someone simply sending tokens to a burner wallet as I mentioned in my example)?
-
Regarding your comment “Logan does not retain full ownership rights. Every item on LMP is stored in the Goldin/Collector’s Universe vault and LP, nor anyone else, can’t just take them out.”: If Logan owned all 50,000,000 tokens representing the Illustrator, would he then retain full ownership rights and could take the Illustrator out? Just want to see if I understand your system correctly.
-
When you say "You can sell your ownership at anytime on our MarketPlace without waiting for any other owners to sell ", what you mean by that is that one can sell their tokens at anytime if there is a buyer willing to buy them, correct? Or is this ownership still something separate from the tokens one owns?
-
Could you elaborate on the mentioned “Mini Drops”? What are these, and could I (in theory) just buy tokens worth $10k multiple times in close succession for these Mini Drops? And if limiting the number of tokens one can buy is only limited to Mini Drops (and not activity on the MarketPlace), why don’t the ToU say so?
-
“We also will not just randomly change the values of the tokens.” Is there any technical mechanism from preventing you to do just that, or are we relying on your word?
-
“Yes buyouts require 80%, but we have measures in place so that someone who owns 80% of the tokens cannot just get the other 20% for free.” I don’t think the issue is that they would get the remaining 20% for free. The issue is that they get the remaining 20% against the will of the 20% (unless I misinterpreted the description). So, am I right to assume that my tokens will be gone if people holding 80% or more of all tokens of an item vote in favor of the buyout?
-
“The last point you make in your comment is also pretty standard for almost every ToS for any company in any industry.” Let’s say it is. If I lost my tokens for an illegitimate reason (for example liquidmarketplace freezing my account by accident and deleting my tokens - and the ToU explicitly say they can delete them). Wouldn’t it still be a huge deterrent to using your platform if the passage “you are agreeing to give up any rights to litigate claims in a court. Other rights that you would have if you went to court may also be unavailable or may be limited in arbitration. You hereby expressly give up your right to have a trial by jury, where applicable.” still applies?
-
Let’s say (hypothetically) that some tokens of an item do get lost (either because they were deleted or because they were sent to a burner wallet because the platform becomes an open system in the future). How would this affect the value of the item? Would the remaining tokens be seen as the new 100%? Or would you create new tokens to replace the lost ones? Could you even create new tokens?
-
When Logan says that he retains 49% ownership of the Illustrator, what exactly does that mean? Does that mean that he owns 24,500,000 of the 50,000,000 tokens representing the Illustrator, or does it mean something else/more than that? If it just refers to token ownership, can he just sell his tokens or buy more of them?
4 Likes
Logan is in bed with PSA, he gets phone calls from PSA to when his card(s) get graded, Logan shills NFT all day long, has bought $170k of NFT’s plus more probably
It won’t be long till PSA till PSA will introduce some weird NFT project or something of the nature around NFTs. We’re in the height of social media influencers attempting to influence our decision making.
I just got off the phone with the owner of Liquidmarketplace. I just want to say this guy was super chill and I didn’t feel like I was being sold anything. To add context, I’ve been pitched on countless fractional share platforms. And get the weekly advertisement email, still saving myself for the right one. 
In all seriousness, I just wanted to share the positive experience. I think fractional shares play a role for rare items that will never have enough copies to go around. I plan on talking to them again to get a better understanding of the platform and how it all works. I will keep you guys posted! 
7 Likes
does liquid marketplace have room to fractionalize my psa 8 evolution holos?
5 Likes
Hey, good morning! Apologies for the late reply. We are hosting a box break so I’ve been quite busy with planning.
-
Yes the ToS and ToU are the same thing. And I was told that the time it takes to make a change is 30 days.
-
I’m not a dev and my crypto knowledge is limited to my personal investments rather than understanding it systemically, so I can’t give an exact answer as to how we would prevent this. Not specifically for Liquid MarketPlace but just from my own understanding, if someone is sending tokens to a burner wallet then they would likely be forfeiting the value.
-
Yes, if Logan or anyone else personally owned any entire item then of course they can request the item to be delivered to them!
-
Yes, when there is a buyer willing to buy them, that is correct. Ownership is through tokens, same thing. I use the terms interchangeably.
-
Mini Drops are smaller-valued items that we list at the midpoint of each month. I may be wrong, but I believe you are confusing tokens as being the same for each item, which isn’t exactly correct. Each item has it’s own set of tokens that are specifically for that one item - so yes you can buy the entirety of a Mini Drop, or any other Drop. The ToU doesn’t specifically say what the limitations apply to since the Mini Drop definition isn’t set in stone. For example, Logan listed one of his 99 Original NFTs for all of his fans who wanted one but couldn’t afford the price (averaging $45k at the time we planned this). So he listed one on our site, priced at $30K. We didn’t want a single individual to purchase the entire item - we underpriced it for a reason, Logan wanted his fans to be able to own it at a nice price. So we limited the amount of tokens each individual could buy at Offerings (initial drop) because of that. It ended up selling out in I believe 1-2 minutes, and then after the transference period (1 hour) it was moved to MarketPlace (secondary market on platform) where anyone could buy more. This wasn’t exactly a Mini Drop but it was low in value and had a limitation for a specific reason.
-
So you have to look at where the price comes from. We show multiple prices to users: their Cost Basis, the Recent Price, the Bid, and the Ask. Those prices all come from user actions (what users are buying, what price they’re buying at, and what limit orders they’re placing in the market). We can’t inflate the market if that’s what you’re asking. But the tokens don’t have an inherent price tied to them, they just have the percent ownership of the item tied to them. The price is determined by users.
-
Yes if 80% or more approve the buyout then the 20% would be paid out for their share and will lose their tokens. Same for voting to send the item to auction. This percent is in-line with industry standards and is unfortunately the only way to reasonably create opportunities for buyouts/auctions. If it required 100% of the vote, then we effectively would never have a buyout or auction. And that would be detrimental to many users - buyouts are a big part of this industry.
-
Well personally I’ve read very few, if any, ToS that didn’t have that caveat. You sign that paperwork that gives up your right to trial by jury whenever you buy a car, lease or rent a home, get a loan, get a mortgage, open a bank account, etc. It is literally everywhere - I found an article from the WSJ from 2004 talking about how almost all contracts have that caveat. It is extremely common in the US and Canada, and likely everywhere else.
-
Again, I can’t speak to what systems we would have in place in the future if the platform opens like that. Simply because I am personally not involved in the development of those processes.
-
Yes, in Logan’s personal account on the platform he has 24,500,000 tokens. I don’t believe there is anything preventing him from selling or buying more. Although you have to remember that this is his money he is playing with. If he just dumped all his tokens, the supply shock would likely result in buy orders filling at pennies on the dollar. There’s no reason for him to lose 90%+ of his investment into the Illustrator by dumping. But also, we are a free market, we don’t place limitations on individuals trading as that could amount to manipulation.
1 Like