Just a quick question, but why are selling threads not allowed?
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Made this into its own thread so we can answer it more openly.
Sales were originally allowed on the old UPCCC, but over time the staff felt that the best way to move forward and increase the quality of the forum was to ban sales for several reasons.
First, allowing sales meant we had a lot of users who were here simply to sell cards and not to contribute in any way to the discussions being had.
Second, allowing sales meant sellers had free access to a major hub of serious collectors, the likes of which really isn’t available anywhere else. This increased the amount of people only here to sell.
Thirdly, allowing sales created an environment that really detracted from overall discussions on the hobby. I personally wasn’t around when sales were allowed, I’m sure some of the other mods can add in on it, but my impression is that E4 has been made vastly better by the banning of sales.
There are certainly individual fixes to each of these issues like limiting sales threads, only allowing “trusted” members to sell, or charging fees to be a seller (which would help cover E4’s operational costs) but the simplest way was just to ban sales.
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I joined this place when creating sale threads was still allowed and imo everything worked perfectly with other users. However I do agree the current system is much better, if anyone needs to advertise their ebay sales that can be done simply in signature text and WTB/WTT threads have lots of activity anyways. 
Not interested about idea of re-introducing sales section where you can list stuff against certain fee.
I think it is more likely that a buyer will look through sell threads, than a seller will look through buy threads.
The downside is a service is being denied to members.
Some examples of how it could be beneficial:
A release of Japan promos could be offered here first (i.e. A member had good prices for Easter Pikachu cards on eBay which sold fast, they could been offered here first)
There are some members who buy large volumes of Japanese boxes, if they could list their extras it could help others complete their set.
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I’d generally agree with you but they could always put them up for trade if they wanted to. What a Seller/ Trader does once it goes to PM is up to them.
If this rule keeps this board from digressing into something that looks like the reddit community I’m all for it.
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I don’t bother looking at trade threads, because I don’t expect anything I want there.
@scratchdesk said:
If this rule keeps this board from digressing into something that looks like the reddit community I’m all for it.
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How is that any different than the views some members have opined about the open giveaways?
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My opinion, not intended to sway anyone;
The admin team don’t allow sales on the premise that it’ll attract members that are only here to sell.
Yet in the same breath we run giveaways that attract people who only care about winning something.
So we deny people who are actually able to help us out, and invite those who only want to leach?
Riiiiiiiggghhht…
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I really like some of the points mentioned here. I rather see the community debate for the purpose of knowledge rather than turned into a random market full of spam posts. Not only that, with sales come risks, complaints, plus there are always dishonest people. Handling those specific situations will bring an unnecessary cloud to the community that obscures our purpose. I’m not saying that sellers are bad at all, after all we get a lot from them and most of them are collectors themselves. But for example, how would we handle a situation such as the one that occurred to @dreamgirl1959 the other day? I sometimes think we are better just the way we are. I personally feel that our current way works just fine and when we see something we like it doesn’t hurt to contact someone by PM. I have in the past and have been helped by people who have doubles of a card I want. Wink Wink @scratchdesk hehe
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I actually like the fact that public sale threads aren’t allowed on E4. There are plenty of options when it comes to buying (eBay, Amazon, Facebook, IG…) and when I’m looking to make a purchase, I will always turn to one of those websites - and can almost always find what I’m looking to purchase.
However, when I’m looking to read-up on Pokemon / eBay News; I’ll always turn to E4! And I like it that way. I’d rather see interesting “New Topics” than pages and pages of random people trying to unload all of there Krabby Cards for $500.00 / Ea. - if I want to see that, I’ll just log onto eBay Haha
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I was about to write an essay with examples, pros/cons, and solutions to those cons but then I realized I don’t have time for that at the moment so here is the short version:
I feel that, because this is a major hub of serious collectors, regulated selling (publicly) should be allowed.
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Displaying your item for sale on ebay takes care of the need for a regulated selling platform imo. I like how things are set up currently. It goes down in then DM’s. I think E4 is better suited as a knowledge/community hub vs. a seller’s tool.
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I think that this forum is real quality for Pokemon Card Collecting, pure high quality discussion is a real blessing and many other hobbies do not have it, I just don’t think this forum should give in too becoming another marketplace…
It would be a real shame if this became another avenue for just sellers,
I think they’re enough selling options, FB, Instagram, Bay, website,
If anyone on here has anything I want on their selling outlets, I give them a DM, and I’ve found that with my cards too,
If e4 became a marketplace, I think it would cheapen the forum, I would rather a pure high quality forum about Pokemon Cards than a forum which underneath, basically members are just trying too flog you stuff,
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I sell a lot of cards. I am glad there isn’t an option to sell here as I don’t think it would lead the forum anywhere positive and I think it would take away from what Scott’s goal is with this forum.
That being said, a lot of sales still go down for myself and others on this forum and I think it all works perfectly fine the way that it is. Many times I recognize a username over on eBay and direct them here, or folks shoot me messages after connecting my account here with my eBay and many successful buy/sells/trades have been made. Even if selling were to open up over here I likely wouldn’t go too far in advertising anything here as it would be more time for me as I am already putting everything on eBay anyways and most people looking to buy specific things are always scouring eBay and will find it there.
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I’m not saying this to squash conversation, but I think it’s important to note that while we can discuss why we do something, it’s not a democracy and we’ve done what we’ve done for a reason.
That said, here are a few things a normal member might not know:
- Upon removing sales, we saw an immediate (and later sustained) increase in conversation.
- PokeGym, the spiritual successor (in part) to UPCCC, now known as E4, had sales and it directly contributed to the death of its collecting subforum.
- The number of issues between members has been reduced by at least half, probably more, since we removed sales threads.
- Individuals we identified as problem users when selling was around largely reformed all of the problematic behaviors after we removed sales if they didn’t leave altogether. We consider this a good thing because our micro-level goal is to produce better collectors which in turn improves the community as a whole.
- In-house sales made it our problem when someone did something unsavory in the marketplace abroad as it intimately concerned how they might behave here where as removing that part of sales made it much easier for us to contain that part of the modding/administrative experience. This in turn dramatically reduced both workload and drama.
On our side of things, it is abundantly clear that things are better now than they were then. I think sales is unique because it is infinitely easier to imagine the positives than it is to predict all of the problems. As is the case with many things, we have to have some trust that we’ve done this for good reasons and maintained it because we saw positive results.
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@funmonkey54 @fourthstartcg summed it up nicely! This topic is essentially an ignorance is bliss scenario. I will try to add a few points to better help others understand who were not here when sales existed.
First, when sales existed, the site was much smaller. From a numbers perspective, we probably had maybe 25-30,000 views per month. Today we have 400,000 views per month. Considering this data alone, open sales would be mayhem.
More specifically, sales were spam back then, and mainly attract flippers. Sales were like a flipper bug light.
People were only here to spam post their items they couldn’t sell elsewhere. Every hour someone was “bumping” their thread. Also, this site already has some of the longest standing sellers in the hobby, and they don’t hawk their inventory. Moreover, there are so many other avenues now for sales. Flippers have migrated to social media. Even the most stubborn individual cannot deny the objective toxicity of instagram. We don’t want any of that nonsense here.
Also, people criticizing an open giveaway is not the same whatsoever. A giveaway temporarily draws new members, with the ultimate goal that some will stick around. Arguing it is or does something else is empirically false. The admin are privy to all site analytics, data, numbers, and statistics that only reinforce the intended goal. This practice is also very infrequent, and done mostly by individuals who want to simply give something back to the members.
Ultimately, this site is information based. It is for serious collectors of all shapes and sizes to discuss the hobby. We try to insulate the site from all things scamming, shady, and any other nonsense that exists on social media. The focus here is on collecting, and sharing that passion through information and discussion. Sales did and would only detract from that goal.
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True, but any good site needs to listen to the wants of its members, if doesn’t it can drift away from its member core. There is a site that drifted away from its member core and while competing sites saw an increase in page visits, it saw a decrease in page visits.
@churlocker said:
- Upon removing sales, we saw an immediate (and later sustained) increase in conversation.
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That statement defies logic to me. I can understand how the ratio of posts would improve but not the quantity.
@churlocker said:
2) PokeGym, the spiritual successor (in part) to UPCCC, now known as E4, had sales and it directly contributed to the death of its collecting subforum.
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My experience is just the opposite. The two are a hand in hand proposition. Everybody goes to their sale sites on a daily basis. Does everybody go to their discussion site on a daily basis?
@churlocker said:
3) The number of issues between members has been reduced by at least half, probably more, since we removed sales threads.
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Very true.
@churlocker said:
4) Individuals we identified as problem users when selling was around largely reformed all of the problematic behaviors after we removed sales if they didn’t leave altogether. We consider this a good thing because our micro-level goal is to produce better collectors which in turn improves the community as a whole.
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I can understand problematic members leaving can improve the overall experience for the remaining members, but there are other ways of dealing with the problem than throwing out the baby with bath water. Now the problematic members who stayed, have they improved their behavior elsewhere? If not then you haven’t improved the community as a whole, you’ve just stuck your fingers in your ears and said “nah, nah, nah”
@churlocker said:
5) In-house sales made it our problem when someone did something unsavory in the marketplace abroad as it intimately concerned how they might behave here where as removing that part of sales made it much easier for us to contain that part of the modding/administrative experience. This in turn dramatically reduced both workload and drama.
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It is pleasant when problems go away, but there are times when it is necessary to bear a problem, just as there are times to pass on it. The deciding factor is the needs of the many.
@churlocker said:
On our side of things, it is abundantly clear that things are better now than they were then. I think sales is unique because it is infinitely easier to imagine the positives than it is to predict all of the problems. As is the case with many things, we have to have some trust that we’ve done this for good reasons and maintained it because we saw positive results.
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Unlike most members here, I am qualified to say I think you have lost more than you have gained.
Preface) We regularly consider the requests of the average user. On this issue, they’re divided despite the issue being weighted toward a pro-sales opinion inherently by the perceived cash incentive. And even that is in spite of a philosophical contradiction between our purpose and how sales permission plays out in practice.
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Exactly. It doesn’t make sense to people who can’t see the analytics and make informed judgments. When people make their time here about selling, they tend to only make it about selling. Everyone has a fixed amount of time and they aren’t choosing to sell here instead of somewhere else. Rather, they’re taking the previously dedicated discussion time here and making it in part or in entirety about selling. The analytics proved this to us upon making the change.
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I’d love to hear more about your experience in running a website that does both. More than happy to look at similar analytics and compare those experiences to what we’ve fleshed out here.
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We did not make the change in order to prompt the departure of problematic users. The website was and is open to everyone who wants to participate in a constructive and meaningful way (barring extreme circumstances justifying a ban). However, for some people whose sole purpose was to sell here, leaving was the only option. Often, sales brings out the worst in people and that was common. For every person that left there were ten that stayed, so this was a small minority anyway. Those members who stayed have absolutely improved their behavior. In fact, one reason we are willing to spend a lot of time one-on-one with people who rub the communtiy wrong is because we value each person and have seen amazing turnarounds before. Our policy of forgiveness and cooperation to fix bad behaviors stresses the admin/mod team more than anyone else and has cost us on that end but it is a part of our operating philosophy and we stand by it. It has worked and we will continue doing it without sales, which served to inflame the issues but never did much to help. Especially considering there’s buy section AND The Giant Auction Thread to help people find good deals.
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I agree. Note what I’ve said above. But then, we don’t need more sales. We need a community that is focused on collecting. There are hundreds of places to buy and sell cards but only one place to do what we’re doing here. We’ve determined that becoming the former sacrifices the efficacy of the latter and that’s not in our best interests. We care more about having a place to talk than a member occasionally making a few bucks. That’s a fact.
End remark) You might have lost more than you gained, but the community absolutely did not. The community improved in quantity and quality of content and members. You are definitely qualified to speak for yourself in that regard but the conflicting opinions in this very thread prove that you are not objectively speaking for the community as a whole. That’s an appeal to authority that doesn’t flesh out.
Whenever you don’t have something that members need/want they will move on. For example several years PokéBeach had a sizable amount of members interested in foreign product. I create a thread to assess who wanted a foreign subforum for trading to simplify searching of said product. In short time I had fair quantity of members who express an interest in cards, plushes, other things. I took the findings to Shining Raikou (my superior), he never responded to any of messages. In time those member drifted away.
Take me for example, I have been a mainly buyer since day one. I was given a Trade department to manage. It was dying of neglect. It had a verified seller list, that by rules to stay on the list you have to keep active in the trade forums in the last 6 months. I found members who had not signed into their account for over 2 years. I cleaned that and other threads up. I tried to build interest in Japanese and Korean cards. I had honest pleasure to work with @soulwind. But over time it became evident that PokéBeach had concerns for only for players. So I moved on to here. Now ask yourself, was my leaving the rule or the exception?
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