The Giant English Market Thread

[sgpokecollect]

@traineramy

@pfm

Bidding and then winning and then paying is what is known as “buying a card” and really has nothing to do with manipulation.

Sigh

the moral of the story is work hard and make more money

[Berndos]

“Manipulation” doesn’t mean it’s inorganic though. Some people just genuinely like worlds promos for example, bought them for years because they thought they were undervalued and didn’t sell any of them, which made those rare cards even more scarce. Building positions on cards like that has an effect on the prices, no matter if you call it “manipulation” or people buying what they like.
I will bid a slightly under market price on many German 1. edition Base holos I see on eBay, because I would buy as many as I can of them for the value they had at that price. Is it manipulation if I do it because I genuinely like them and not so that my PSA 9 set holds its value? Probably semantics.

[Cerulean]

It’s really funny. In the early stages of COVID, most people assumed that prices were going to dip across the board and that the market would suffer in the short term. But the opposite has happened, and those same people are now saying prices increased because of COVID and will fall once things straighten out. Lol.

All I know is that we have been hearing “prices aren’t sustainable” since 2016 (“it’s because of Pokemon Go!”) and prices have only continued to increase, even with the retraces that have occurred (the first big one was in 2018 and look what has happened since).

I absolutely believe that there can (and probably will) be a retrace for certain cards, but there is essentially zero chance these prices are going to plummet to what they were in 2016/2017 when you could pick up PSA 9 1st Ed. WOTC holos for $20-25 and PSA 10 1st Ed. Neo Destiny holos for around $100.

The booster box prices alone are a big reason for the increase in individual card prices. Unless some ex-WOTC employee has thousands and thousands of booster boxes from each set stashed in a massive garage somewhere and decides to flood the market with them one day, booster box prices are going to continue to rise, which means that most of these cards will hold their value in the long term.

Heck, I still think a good portion of cards on the market remain UNDERvalued.

No one knows for sure what the future holds, but based on the evidence at hand, I just don’t see how the Pokemon market is going to suddenly crash.

[sgpokecollect]

@Cerulean

It’s really funny. In the early stages of COVID, most people assumed that prices were going to dip across the board and that the market would suffer in the short term. But the opposite has happened, and those same people are now saying prices increased because of COVID and will fall once things straighten out. Lol.

All I know is that we have been hearing “prices aren’t sustainable” since 2016 (“it’s because of Pokemon Go!”) and prices have only continued to increase, even with the retraces that have occurred (the first big one was in 2018 and look what has happened since).

I absolutely believe that there can (and probably will) be a retrace for certain cards, but there is essentially zero chance these prices are going to plummet to what they were in 2016/2017 when you could pick up PSA 9 1st Ed. WOTC holos for $20-25 and PSA 10 1st Ed. Neo Destiny holos for around $100.

The booster box prices alone are a big reason for the increase in individual card prices. Unless some ex-WOTC employee has thousands and thousands of booster boxes from each set stashed in a massive garage somewhere and decides to flood the market with them one day, booster box prices are going to continue to rise, which means that most of these cards will hold their value in the long term.

Heck, I still think a good portion of cards on the market remain UNDERvalued.

No one knows for sure what the future holds, but based on the evidence at hand, I just don’t see how the Pokemon market is going to suddenly crash.

Reason is simple for the first one. When covid first happened, myself and a few others focused on the unemployment numbers and projected a fall in prices due to fall in discretionary income, similar to the impact of prior recessions on the collectibles market in 2008-2009 (at that time, pokemon was mostly still too cheap to move, but many collectibles did soften in value during that period). But given this is the first pandemic induced recession over the past century, we gradually learnt that the stoppage of almost all other discretionary expenditure opportunities resulted in a boom in pretty much all collectibles including pokemon (again, different from the prior recessions)

Today, we now have the understanding of how the movement of discretionary income has shifted towards collectibles. We have an understanding of the supply slowdown such as psa halting. We now have a more informed understanding of the dynamics at play, and therefore formed a new view that yes, prices will likely fall as other discretionary spending opportunities reappear (albeit many won’t for awhile) and psa resumes operations.

The “bears” have new information, are analysing it differently, are thinking about it differently. It’s something that obviously should be encouraged on this forum and i think it is.

For retracement to 2016/2017 prices, lol, no one is saying that

*P.S. After the Pokemon Go boom there was a big retracement in prices. I recall it, because mewtwo was selling at 4k++ at that time and psa 10 shadowless were going for 1k++. It’s funny, many were like it’s the new normal!!! it’s the new normal!!! Same exact story of box prices increases and scarcity. Then for 2 years, mewtwo was selling in the 2k arena and shadowless halved across the board. Couple years later they have finally caught up, but those that waited out their purchases until the “boom” was over would have doubled / tripled their money today, while those that bought at the top of the boom, depending on what they bought, could even be breakeven or just a small gain today (assuming they loaded up on shadowless at its peak)

Long and short of it. Bulls will have their day and bears will have their day, and it always comes in cycles. The up and down will forever continue until the end of time. There’s a saying in the stock market, for every transaction, someone thinks it will go up, someone thinks it will go down. Both have been right at different times. Those that keep analysing new information, think hard and try their best to form an impartial view, and keep questioning their own thesis will be most successful in the end.*

[Pbali]

@sgpokecollect

*P.S. After the Pokemon Go boom there was a big retracement in prices. I recall it, because mewtwo was selling at 4k++ at that time and psa 10 shadowless were going for 1k++. It’s funny, many were like it’s the new normal!!! it’s the new normal!!! Same exact story of box prices increases and scarcity. Then for 2 years, mewtwo was selling in the 2k arena and shadowless halved across the board. Couple years later they have finally caught up, but those that waited out their purchases until the “boom” was over would have doubled / tripled their money today, while those that bought at the top of the boom, depending on what they bought, could even be breakeven or just a small gain today (assuming they loaded up on shadowless at its peak)

Long and short of it. Bulls will have their day and bears will have their day, and it always comes in cycles. The up and down will forever continue until the end of time. There’s a saying in the stock market, for every transaction, someone thinks it will go up, someone thinks it will go down. Both have been right at different times. Those that keep analysing new information, think hard and try their best to form an impartial view, and keep questioning their own thesis will be most successful in the end.*

A little nitpick, but those mewtwo sales for 4k+ on PWCC never went through. Not saying that there wasn’t a retrace on many cards, however on mewtwo specifically there weren’t any public legitimate sales above 4k at the time.

[null_user]

@Cerulean

It’s really funny. In the early stages of COVID, most people assumed that prices were going to dip across the board and that the market would suffer in the short term. But the opposite has happened, and those same people are now saying prices increased because of COVID and will fall once things straighten out. Lol.

All I know is that we have been hearing “prices aren’t sustainable” since 2016 (“it’s because of Pokemon Go!”) and prices have only continued to increase, even with the retraces that have occurred (the first big one was in 2018 and look what has happened since).

I absolutely believe that there can (and probably will) be a retrace for certain cards, but there is essentially zero chance these prices are going to plummet to what they were in 2016/2017 when you could pick up PSA 9 1st Ed. WOTC holos for $20-25 and PSA 10 1st Ed. Neo Destiny holos for around $100.

The booster box prices alone are a big reason for the increase in individual card prices. Unless some ex-WOTC employee has thousands and thousands of booster boxes from each set stashed in a massive garage somewhere and decides to flood the market with them one day, booster box prices are going to continue to rise, which means that most of these cards will hold their value in the long term.

Heck, I still think a good portion of cards on the market remain UNDERvalued.

No one knows for sure what the future holds, but based on the evidence at hand, I just don’t see how the Pokemon market is going to suddenly crash.

If I recall, it was thought the dip would occur because of the recession it would cause, not covid itself. Which is still very much a possibility.

Quarantine was the major factor that boosted solitary hobbies during isolation. Once the isolation lifts then it doesn’t become too much of a stretch to think that many may shift their attention towards other things, and choose to cash out rather than save to complete a set they started collecting, only to be priced out of before they could blink.

The recession, however, will remain a large factor, the economy doesn’t instantly repair itself just because covid eases. The economic fallout can still bludgen the collectors market. The recession could be the thing that ushers in a retrace as perhaps more and more people find themselves in further hardship. So I wouldn’t be too quick chide anyone at this stage as it is still very early.

We have been fortunate enough to see the market test new highs, which is a great signal for the future strength of the hobby. But its a bit bitter-sweet as the market hasn’t run a clean race, it had a boost of steroids.

[sgpokecollect]

@Pbali

@sgpokecollect

*P.S. After the Pokemon Go boom there was a big retracement in prices. I recall it, because mewtwo was selling at 4k++ at that time and psa 10 shadowless were going for 1k++. It’s funny, many were like it’s the new normal!!! it’s the new normal!!! Same exact story of box prices increases and scarcity. Then for 2 years, mewtwo was selling in the 2k arena and shadowless halved across the board. Couple years later they have finally caught up, but those that waited out their purchases until the “boom” was over would have doubled / tripled their money today, while those that bought at the top of the boom, depending on what they bought, could even be breakeven or just a small gain today (assuming they loaded up on shadowless at its peak)

Long and short of it. Bulls will have their day and bears will have their day, and it always comes in cycles. The up and down will forever continue until the end of time. There’s a saying in the stock market, for every transaction, someone thinks it will go up, someone thinks it will go down. Both have been right at different times. Those that keep analysing new information, think hard and try their best to form an impartial view, and keep questioning their own thesis will be most successful in the end.*

A little nitpick, but those mewtwo sales for 4k+ on PWCC never went through. Not saying that there wasn’t a retrace on many cards, however on mewtwo specifically there weren’t any public legitimate sales above 4k at the time.

Alright another example, one of the most important cards in the hobby, psa 10 shadowless zard, went from 3k to 20k and dropped to 12k or something…did i remember that correctly? (@zap2 hope you don’t mind me quoting!)

www.elitefourum.com/t/shadowless-charizard-psa-10-not-20-000/19080/1

***Dec 28, 2017 6:47:29 GMT 8 zap2 said:

So if I had bought the one for $3k last January I’d be up $17,000. (~7x in 11 months, retraced around 40-50% over the next few months iirc)

Had I won the one in June for $5600 I’d be up over $14,000.

If I had bid $1000 more in August I’d be up nearly $8,000.***

www.elitefourum.com/t/prices-plummeting-a-look-at-the-data-shadowless-holos/19742/1

***Mar 12, 2018 15:07:43 GMT 8 zap2 said:

This has to do with all the recent discussion of prices dropping and markets showing a downward trend, specifically with Shadowless since that is my favorite set and the one I pay most attention to…

Gyarados Shadowless PSA 10

19815854 - 06/24/12 - 134.99

20804744 - 11/07/16 - 450

23012983 - 02/05/17 - 295

23303869 - 03/18/17 - 359.99

17996288 - 05/02/17 - 335.71

20804744 - 05/16/17 - 370

27505285 - 07/28/17 - 999.95

26954435 - 08/25/17 - 880

28196074 - 11/29/17 - 1425 (~5x in 9 months, retraced around 50% in next 4 months)

28386743 - 03/11/18 - 685***
and I shall add one more for shadowless gyarados sold recently (it actually last sold three years ago and doubled! but that was right before the boom and the last sold is still below jul-2017 prices, close to three years ago)

17996288 - 04/12/20 - 777.67
www.ebay.com/itm/1999-POKEMON-BASE-SET-GYARADOS-SHADOWLESS-1ST-EDITION-6-PSA-10-MINT-17996288-/202956325149?hash=item2f4123c11d%3Ag%3AU34AAOSwXy5eiTh6&nma=true&si=%252BI%252BIj3g1AsCY7rte%252BPhmuH55NmM%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
*P.S. Slacking off work and quickly shooting some keyboard warrior posts. I know other cards have gone up over the same period, this is just illustrative…but shadowless is an important set and zard is an important card so while they are not completely representative, they do have some representativeness to them

Also, shadowless gyarados psa 10 is pop 57 today. Given where box prices are, probably a hell of a bargain vs the gym set and prices should go up soon if i had to wager.*

[Cerulean]

@sgpokecollect

@Cerulean

It’s really funny. In the early stages of COVID, most people assumed that prices were going to dip across the board and that the market would suffer in the short term. But the opposite has happened, and those same people are now saying prices increased because of COVID and will fall once things straighten out. Lol.

All I know is that we have been hearing “prices aren’t sustainable” since 2016 (“it’s because of Pokemon Go!”) and prices have only continued to increase, even with the retraces that have occurred (the first big one was in 2018 and look what has happened since).

I absolutely believe that there can (and probably will) be a retrace for certain cards, but there is essentially zero chance these prices are going to plummet to what they were in 2016/2017 when you could pick up PSA 9 1st Ed. WOTC holos for $20-25 and PSA 10 1st Ed. Neo Destiny holos for around $100.

The booster box prices alone are a big reason for the increase in individual card prices. Unless some ex-WOTC employee has thousands and thousands of booster boxes from each set stashed in a massive garage somewhere and decides to flood the market with them one day, booster box prices are going to continue to rise, which means that most of these cards will hold their value in the long term.

Heck, I still think a good portion of cards on the market remain UNDERvalued.

No one knows for sure what the future holds, but based on the evidence at hand, I just don’t see how the Pokemon market is going to suddenly crash.

Reason is simple for the first one. When covid first happened, myself and a few others focused on the unemployment numbers and projected a fall in prices due to fall in discretionary income, similar to the impact of prior recessions on the collectibles market in 2008-2009 (at that time, pokemon was mostly still too cheap to move, but many collectibles did soften in value during that period). But given this is the first pandemic induced recession over the past century, we gradually learnt that the stoppage of almost all other discretionary expenditure opportunities resulted in a boom in pretty much all collectibles including pokemon (again, different from the prior recessions)

Today, we now have the understanding of how the movement of discretionary income has shifted towards collectibles. We have an understanding of the supply slowdown such as psa halting. We now have a more informed understanding of the dynamics at play, and therefore formed a new view that yes, prices will likely fall as other discretionary spending opportunities reappear (albeit many won’t for awhile) and psa resumes operations.

The “bears” have new information, are analysing it differently, are thinking about it differently. It’s something that obviously should be encouraged on this forum and i think it is.

For retracement to 2016/2017 prices, lol, no one is saying that

*P.S. After the Pokemon Go boom there was a big retracement in prices. I recall it, because mewtwo was selling at 4k++ at that time and psa 10 shadowless were going for 1k++. It’s funny, many were like it’s the new normal!!! it’s the new normal!!! Same exact story of box prices increases and scarcity. Then for 2 years, mewtwo was selling in the 2k arena and shadowless halved across the board. Couple years later they have finally caught up, but those that waited out their purchases until the “boom” was over would have doubled / tripled their money today, while those that bought at the top of the boom, depending on what they bought, could even be breakeven or just a small gain today (assuming they loaded up on shadowless at its peak)

Long and short of it. Bulls will have their day and bears will have their day, and it always comes in cycles. The up and down will forever continue until the end of time. There’s a saying in the stock market, for every transaction, someone thinks it will go up, someone thinks it will go down. Both have been right at different times. Those that keep analysing new information, think hard and try their best to form an impartial view, and keep questioning their own thesis will be most successful in the end.*

It doesn’t matter what the reason is. People were positive prices would fall. They didn’t. Now, people are looking for an excuse as to why they have risen.

As far as dropping to 2016/2017 prices? I mean, someone literally said it earlier in this thread.

[sgpokecollect]

@Cerulean

@sgpokecollect

It doesn’t matter what the reason is. People were positive prices would fall. They didn’t. Now, people are looking for an excuse as to why they have risen.

As far as dropping to 2016/2017 prices? I mean, someone literally said it earlier in this thread.

I love it! You win!

[Cerulean]

@rainbow

@Cerulean

It’s really funny. In the early stages of COVID, most people assumed that prices were going to dip across the board and that the market would suffer in the short term. But the opposite has happened, and those same people are now saying prices increased because of COVID and will fall once things straighten out. Lol.

All I know is that we have been hearing “prices aren’t sustainable” since 2016 (“it’s because of Pokemon Go!”) and prices have only continued to increase, even with the retraces that have occurred (the first big one was in 2018 and look what has happened since).

I absolutely believe that there can (and probably will) be a retrace for certain cards, but there is essentially zero chance these prices are going to plummet to what they were in 2016/2017 when you could pick up PSA 9 1st Ed. WOTC holos for $20-25 and PSA 10 1st Ed. Neo Destiny holos for around $100.

The booster box prices alone are a big reason for the increase in individual card prices. Unless some ex-WOTC employee has thousands and thousands of booster boxes from each set stashed in a massive garage somewhere and decides to flood the market with them one day, booster box prices are going to continue to rise, which means that most of these cards will hold their value in the long term.

Heck, I still think a good portion of cards on the market remain UNDERvalued.

No one knows for sure what the future holds, but based on the evidence at hand, I just don’t see how the Pokemon market is going to suddenly crash.

If I recall, it was thought the dip would occur because of the recession it would cause, not covid itself. Which is still very much a possibility.

Quarantine was the major factor that boosted solitary hobbies during isolation. Once the isolation lifts then it doesn’t become too much of a stretch to think that many may shift their attention towards other things, and choose to cash out rather than save to complete a set they started collecting, only to be priced out of before they could blink.

The recession, however, will remain a large factor, the economy doesn’t instantly repair itself just because covid eases. The economic fallout can still bludgen the collectors market. The recession could be the thing that ushers in a retrace as perhaps more and more people find themselves in further hardship. So I wouldn’t be too quick chide anyone at this stage as it is still very early.

We have been fortunate enough to see the market test new highs, which is a great signal for the future strength of the hobby. But its a bit bitter-sweet as the market hasn’t run a clean race, it had a boost of steroids.

Well yeah obviously lol. I don’t think anyone assumed that the virus itself would cause a dip in prices.

I do agree that quarantine could have boosted prices, but it’s also important to keep in mind that prices were rising before COVID even hit. There was significant movement in PSA 9 1st Ed. WOTC holos, for example.

Again, do I think some cards will retrace? Yes. Like I said: there are some obvious offenders. Do I know for sure what prices are going to do? No. No one does. But do I think the market is in a good place and will continue to flourish overall? Absolutely.

[null_user]

@Cerulean

@rainbow

If I recall, it was thought the dip would occur because of the recession it would cause, not covid itself. Which is still very much a possibility.

Quarantine was the major factor that boosted solitary hobbies during isolation. Once the isolation lifts then it doesn’t become too much of a stretch to think that many may shift their attention towards other things, and choose to cash out rather than save to complete a set they started collecting, only to be priced out of before they could blink.

The recession, however, will remain a large factor, the economy doesn’t instantly repair itself just because covid eases. The economic fallout can still bludgen the collectors market. The recession could be the thing that ushers in a retrace as perhaps more and more people find themselves in further hardship. So I wouldn’t be too quick chide anyone at this stage as it is still very early.

We have been fortunate enough to see the market test new highs, which is a great signal for the future strength of the hobby. But its a bit bitter-sweet as the market hasn’t run a clean race, it had a boost of steroids.

Well yeah obviously lol. I don’t think anyone assumed that the virus itself would cause a dip in prices.

I do agree that quarantine could have boosted prices, but it’s also important to keep in mind that prices were rising before COVID even hit. There was significant movement in PSA 9 1st Ed. WOTC holos, for example.

Again, do I think some cards will retrace? Yes. Like I said: there are some obvious offenders. Do I know for sure what prices are going to do? No. No one does. But do I think the market is in a good place and will continue to flourish overall? Absolutely.

You assumed the stated correlation was to covid and not the recession. Saying it was really funny that people said the market would suffer in the short term, alluding to now, as if it was already over. They were suggesting that the short term would be in reaction to the recession. I don’t think your interpretation was accurate.

You also said quarantine Could have boosted prices*.* I think it’s pretty clear. Did you see my other post? Prices and sales were very subdued in the lead up to covid, compared to 2018.
You are right no-one knows the future. So why laugh at those willing to discuss possible outcomes, instead of getting into the echo chamber, or joining a circle jerk. Since you can’t know the future, you can’t really gloat about being on any particular side of it, right?
If people become too afraid to view or share alternative views or concerns, then they become blind to both opportunities and risks. How about we all stay grounded?

[pfm]

@sgpokecollect

@pfm

Bidding and then winning and then paying is what is known as “buying a card” and really has nothing to do with manipulation.

Depending on context, it could be. The Silver Brothers tried to corner the silver market and purchased billions of dollars in silver to drive up prices, and any financial historian would describe that one of the most historic examples of market manipulation.

I agree with a lot of the stuff you mentioned, but it’s pretty funny that you used this as an example though. In this case they weren’t “buying silver” they were actually buying silver futures which required the seller to pay a premium should they not fulfill the contract. Sure, they ended up with a lot of physical silver but they actually held a larger long position. So in a way, their strategy was actually dependent on “not buying silver” much more than it was actually “buying silver”.

This was made evident when, unsurprisingly, (and the exact same thing would happen in Pokemon) normal people that were just sitting on small amounts in jewelry, etc. started to melt it down and sell it. The new supply allowed silver contracts to be fulfilled. The banks that were funding the majority of this operation started asking for larger collateral, the Hunt brothers defaulted and the banks dumped the silver.
So while it’s probably not wrong to say that the brothers had bought up silver, when you parse out the details they were actually “not buying” silver and it was mostly with someone else’s money. The concept of futures is what actually made this work (until it didn’t), which no parallel really exists in pokemon. In reading about this story, I found this quote which I thought applies really well to anyone attempting a buyout in pokemon:
“The main factor that has caused corners to fail is that the manipulator has underestimated how much will be delivered to him if he succeeds [at] raising the price to artificial levels. Eventually, the Hunts ran out of money to pay for all the silver that was thrown at them.”
Putting all this aside, let’s just say for argument’s sake that everyone agrees that buying up copies of a card with the intention to sell them is manipulation. How many copies would it take before we can call it manipulation? 1? 2? 10? 100? 30% of all copies? If I buy a painting and now immediately own 100% of that market have I market manipulated? Is it ok for me to own 1000 copies of a card if I don’t have an intention to sell it but if I’m buying it for reselling purposes have I manipulated a market? We are not taking about silver or stocks here which are dependent on huge volumes of rapid transactions and have clearly defined supply/demand equilibrium points. We’re talking about scarce items that sell a handful of times a year. I don’t know if many of the concepts in these larger markets effectively translate to our market. As sgpokecollect was probably eluding to in the rest of his post, if we’re going to throw around terms like market manipulation, we should probably stick with clear-cut examples such as shill bidding or generating false sold listings.

[smpratte]

tl;dr Its an arbitrary term.

Even buyouts, which are the flagship fallacy for “MaNiPUlAtIOn” aren’t even viable. This isn’t mtg where you need a card to play at an upcoming tournament. Pokemon prices have increased recently in the short term, and people adjust. They get lower grades, ungraded, or different goals entirely.

Also businesses do unintentional “buyouts” all the time to survive. Its their livelihood. Why we can consistently buy cards we need from TT is because they constantly spend time and money buying collections. But to the negative stereotype’s of this hobby, that hard work is “manipulation”.

[fresco]

@smpratte

tl;dr Its an arbitrary term.

Even buyouts, which are the flagship fallacy for “MaNiPUlAtIOn” aren’t even viable. This isn’t mtg where you need a card to play at an upcoming tournament. Pokemon prices have increased recently in the short term, and people adjust. They get lower grades, ungraded, or different goals entirely.

Also businesses do unintentional “buyouts” all the time to survive. Its their livelihood. Why we can consistently buy cards we need from TT is because they constantly spend time and money buying collections. But to the negative stereotype’s of this hobby, that hard work is “manipulation”.

Legit question, why are all your arguments so against any sort of speculation or possible manipulation to any degree?
Wanna know your input.

[qwachansey]

Wasn’t it Gary’s dream to own as many PSA 10 Base 1st Ed. Charizards as possible but after two decades he was “only” able to collect 10% of them? Cards that people already refuse to sell are harder to buy out than playable cards people have less emotional attachment too.

[smpratte]

@fresco

@smpratte

tl;dr Its an arbitrary term.

Even buyouts, which are the flagship fallacy for “MaNiPUlAtIOn” aren’t even viable. This isn’t mtg where you need a card to play at an upcoming tournament. Pokemon prices have increased recently in the short term, and people adjust. They get lower grades, ungraded, or different goals entirely.

Also businesses do unintentional “buyouts” all the time to survive. Its their livelihood. Why we can consistently buy cards we need from TT is because they constantly spend time and money buying collections. But to the negative stereotype’s of this hobby, that hard work is “manipulation”.

Legit question, why are all your arguments so against any sort of speculation or possible manipulation to any degree?
Wanna know your input.

Show me actual examples and Ill listen.

[fresco]

@smpratte

@fresco

Legit question, why are all your arguments so against any sort of speculation or possible manipulation to any degree?
Wanna know your input.

Show me actual examples and Ill listen.

For example, you mentioned that buyouts are the flagship fallacy for manipulation. And sure, it can be hard work as well but what if certain individuals or groups with moderate capital, doing buyouts(on several things, not ONE specific card) and trying to speculate on it? Isn’t that a possibility?

[traineramy]

@smpratte

tl;dr Its an arbitrary term.

Even buyouts, which are the flagship fallacy for “MaNiPUlAtIOn” aren’t even viable. This isn’t mtg where you need a card to play at an upcoming tournament. Pokemon prices have increased recently in the short term, and people adjust. They get lower grades, ungraded, or different goals entirely.

Also businesses do unintentional “buyouts” all the time to survive. Its their livelihood. Why we can consistently buy cards we need from TT is because they constantly spend time and money buying collections. But to the negative stereotype’s of this hobby, that hard work is “manipulation”.

Do people actually believe buyouts of specific cards are a possibility?

[smpratte]

@fresco

@smpratte

Show me actual examples and Ill listen.

For example, you mentioned that buyouts are the flagship fallacy for manipulation. And sure, it can be hard work as well but what if certain individuals or groups with moderate capital, doing buyouts and trying to speculate on it? Isn’t that a possibility?

Can you show me where that is actually happening?

Also can anyone show me the difference between 5 people buying 20 cards, 10 people buying 20 cards, 20 people buying 20 cards? Where do we draw this arbitrary line? Also what are the damages? These are all serious questions I would genuinely loved answered.

[fresco]

@smpratte

@fresco

For example, you mentioned that buyouts are the flagship fallacy for manipulation. And sure, it can be hard work as well but what if certain individuals or groups with moderate capital, doing buyouts and trying to speculate on it? Isn’t that a possibility?

Can you show me where that is actually happening?

Also can anyone show me the difference between 5 people buying 20 cards, 10 people buying 20 cards, 20 people buying 20 cards? Where do we draw this arbitrary line? Also what are the damages? These are all serious questions I would genuinely loved answered.

If i had those answers i would gladly spill the beans here but i don’t. Despite pokemon being a very different market i was curious as of why it is less prone to having all the speculative aspects that are present in other “modern” collectibles.