Buyers have no power? (Bit of a rant)

[Paulkemon]

I always thought that when it comes to buying Pokemon cards, the vendors have all the power. Which makes sense. They have the card you want, so they can charge whatever they want for it, and if someone else has it cheaper, you’ll probably get it from them. I also understand tHAtS SiMpLE sUpPly AnD DeMAnD bRO. But hear me out just this once.

I tried to post to my state’s pokemon facebook page about shill bidding that was very clearly happening for the Charizard SIR from Paldean Fates. I posted it because I wanted to get people’s thoughts because on the one hand it is nice to see a Pokemon card that you own going up in value, but on the other hand it’s very much illegal and ruins the hobby as a whole. The admins decided not to approve it (which is kind of sketchy but whatever).

Fast forward to a couple weeks ago, one of the admins on the page made a ‘very important announcement’ about being watchful about a card that was being manipulated in the opposite direction, and to not listen to buyers who tell you that the market price is $100 lower than what it was three days ago. Some random person was posting and buying a card for $1 to get the price down. Personally I think that guys a hero, but that’s not here nor there at the moment.

I’m not sure why his post made me so upset. I think it was the result of a bunch of problems all culminated into one issue. The problem of the Pokemon card hobby being a liquid asset, the problem of market manipulations only being beneficial for when it makes someone money, and the fact that I still can’t get cards that I want because I’m about as average collector as you can get in terms of budget allotments for cards and everything is still wayyy too expensive.

I guess I’m wondering why buyers have no power? It’s not like the cards on the market right now aren’t readily available. There may not be product, but I’m saying that if you go to a card show you’ll be able to find 9 different tables selling that Umbreon Vmax Alt Art that everyone wants so bad. Now imagine if you went to a vendor and said ‘no actually that card was clearly manipulated to $600 and it’s actually more like a $150 card’ you’d be laughed out of the card show. But vendors can somehow get away with ‘that’s not the actual market price because it’s being manipulated down. It is in fact a $600 card, not a $150 card’

That fact just makes me furious for some reason and I just don’t know who else might get my frustrations about it. I still don’t know why it makes me so upset but hopefully y’all will be able to put better words in my mouth.

Am I alone in this? If I am please still be kind with your words

[fourthstartcg]

Pokemon Facebook pages are probably the lowest of the low. Without wanting to sound too much like this is the Elitist Fourum, you can comfortably write off a lot of what gets said on Facebook as pointless noise. With that being said, I want to address the main points of your claims.

Underlying everything must be an understanding that Pokemon cards have no inherent value. Their prices are determined by supply, demand, what people are willing to sell for, and what people are willing to pay. Because these are the only things that determine value of cards, and they can change very quickly, Pokemon cards do not have “market prices” as much as the 5000 sites that put sales into a line graph want you to believe.

“Market manipulation” (either up or down) doesn’t exist. Shill bidding is usually an isolated phenomenon and is likely done for purposes other than “manipulating” the market, like getting more money for a seller. There are some isolated incidents of coordinated and ongoing shill bidding on classes of cards designed to drive up prices, but with today’s tools these are quickly discovered. Many shortsighted people may try to “manipulate the market” by tricking the 5000 eBay affiliate price trackers into believing a card is selling higher or lower, thus altering the “market price.” The problem with this is that it is thwarted by people rubbing 1.5 to 2 neurons together and clicking “Sold Listings” on eBay and seeing that most real sales still remain within a reasonable, non-outlier range. As such, most market manipulation attempts by uninformed people dreadfully fail. Some shill bidding on a readily available modern Charizord or someone listing a bunch of cards for $1 and selling them to themselves are ripples in the lake of the market. Prices go up or down all the time, and this is not an inherent sign of manipulation.

Depending on the state of the market, buyers or sellers will have more power. If the market is hot, supply is low, and demand is high, sellers have more power. Why wouldn’t a seller laugh at someone who claims prices are “manipulated” if they have five other people standing in line willing to pay their asking price or very close to it? If the market changes and demand weakens, buyer power increases. Sellers might not have people lined up to buy their cards and instead are now competing with the 9 other sellers at the show for 2-3 buyers in total. This puts a downward pressure on prices and gives buyers power to pay less.

In all, it seems like you are conceptualizing power as price. If you pay more, you don’t have power. If you pay less, you have power. Remember that as a buyer you always have the power to set the price you pay for a card. If you don’t feel comfortable paying a certain price, you can simply not buy a card. You run the risk of others wanting the card more and increasing the price, but you always set your goals, priorities, and expenditures.

[gengarbrigade]

@Paulkemon

Now imagine if you went to a vendor and said ‘no actually that card was clearly manipulated to $600 and it’s actually more like a $150 card’ you’d be laughed out of the card show.

the bottom line is, YOU get to choose what you spend your money on. Therefore, you do have the power. Let the uneducated make the mistake and take the L. The sooner you accept you can’t own everything, the easier it gets. I promise. Being upset, while valid, only wastes your energy. I was told a long time ago, if you spend more than (5) minutes being upset on a situation, you’re dwelling. It’s not healthy.

[tidaldreams]

1. doubt people posting on facebook know anything about pokemans, thats mostly where ppl run illegal “waffles” to get 50% above market on their dirt common cards
2. would avoid buying from card shows unless you want no buyer protection for when u get fake poncho slabs or resealed boxes, also vendors will shill comps right before it and “match” the shilled comps
3. would avoid ultra modern in general since there are like 10k+ psa 10s and the price will prolly be 80% less sometime in the next 5 years

[Essoman]

No one makes me spend, just me. I pay what I am comfy with… and the FOMO factor does not impact. Its only a hobby, not a life style. I’ll just have to wait till the next stall or the next year… hmm; yeah; I can do that.

[Dyl]

I think it’s completely reasonable to feel powerless during a boom. Prices are high, demand is high, supply is relatively low. The best thing that you can do to cope during times like this is to set spending limits for yourself and be prepared to walk away when a card is selling for beyond what you personally value it at.

Even during this boom, there are many deals to be found. They might not be the flashiest cards or the most discussed on social media, but they are great cards nonetheless.

There are also numerous ways to enjoy this hobby that do not include buying overpriced cards (e.g., watching the anime, playing the video games, chatting with collectors on forums like this, creating art of your favorite Pokemon, buying other types of merchandise within your budget).

Lastly, I will say that booms work both ways. Yes, cards are more expensive to purchase. However, they may also net you a greater amount of money if you were to sell some of your cards to consolidate for a larger purchase. Acting on the value lying dormant in your collection may give you some agency back.

Hope this helps!

[ddk]

@Dyl

Lastly, I will say that booms work both ways. Yes, cards are more expensive to purchase. However, they may also net you a greater amount of money if you were to sell some of your cards to consolidate for a larger purchase. Acting on the value lying dormant in your collection may give you some agency back.

To echo what Dyl has said, I would agree that selling some of your collection into a boom improves your mentality. There will be cards that you’re priced out of or not comfortable buying at their current inflated prices, but having funds available to grab stuff you want can still make collecting enjoyable (or at the very least make you feel less helpless) during these market conditions.

I would also recommend taking the time now to learn about other segments of the TCG that you may have passed up previously. There are still many classes of cards that are reasonably priced and contain beautiful artwork for a fraction of the price of a gold star or crystal.

I was initially pretty doom & gloom about this boom, but over the course of the year I’ve readjusted my expectations and learned how to operate within the new set of rules.

[Paulkemon]

@fourthstartcg

Pokemon Facebook pages are probably the lowest of the low. Without wanting to sound too much like this is the Elitist Fourum, you can comfortably write off a lot of what gets said on Facebook as pointless noise.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for

@fourthstartcg

“Market manipulation” (either up or down) doesn’t exist. Shill bidding is usually an isolated phenomenon and is likely done for purposes other than “manipulating” the market, like getting more money for a seller. There are some isolated incidents of coordinated and ongoing shill bidding on classes of cards designed to drive up prices, but with today’s tools these are quickly discovered.

Interesting that you’re saying that’s it’s isolated. Last month I could have shown you a ton of examples of the felt hat package being manipulated. Same with the Charizard. I wouldn’t say it’s isolated at all, I would say the opposite.

@fourthstartcg

The problem with this is that it is thwarted by people rubbing 1.5 to 2 neurons together and clicking “Sold Listings” on eBay and seeing that most real sales still remain within a reasonable, non-outlier range

But this is what I’m saying, is that even if you scroll down far enough past the ridiculous sales the vendors won’t care because ‘that’s just the market price’ or ‘I usually just go by eBay last sold’.

@fourthstartcg

As such, most market manipulation attempts by uninformed people dreadfully fail. Some shill bidding on a readily available modern Charizord or someone listing a bunch of cards for $1 and selling them to themselves are ripples in the lake of the market.

I don’t think they are ripples though. I think that the reason why the grey felt hat Pikachu shot up to $2,500 is because of this. And the reason my $200 Charizard card went from a $200 card to a $700 is also. It also made cards that were once $100 now a thousand dollars and totally unreachable for most average collectors (the mewtwo mew promo for example). I think it has a pretty big impact if the average collector who used to be able to get good cards for cheaper can no longer do that. Granted, I am talking about graded cards if that wasn’t clear already, but that’s what I’ve collected since I started.

@fourthstartcg

Why wouldn’t a seller laugh at someone who claims prices are “manipulated” if they have five other people standing in line willing to pay their asking price or very close to it?

Good point. I just think it’s crazy that those five people would even want it. Like…somebody’s gotta tell em right?

@fourthstartcg

Remember that as a buyer you always have the power to set the price you pay for a card. If you don’t feel comfortable paying a certain price, you can simply not buy a card. You run the risk of others wanting the card more and increasing the price, but you always set your goals, priorities, and expenditures.

Good point also. I guess I just assume that I’m the only one out here not trynna pay what I think are overinflated prices for cards.

[dodge_44]

>Remember that as a buyer you always have the power to set the price you pay for a card. If you don’t feel comfortable paying a certain price, you can simply not buy a card. You run the risk of others wanting the card more and increasing the price, but you always set your goals, priorities, and expenditures.

Both of these things can be true at once:

Buyers have power to set the price you want to pay for a card.

Buyers have no power negotiating in a market like this, especially for vintage and low pop cards, where the seller gets to set the price.

I’m gonna validate OP, and say that yes, it is frustrating to see people come into the hobby with seemingly no cap on what they are willing to pay, which pretty much eliminates all negotiating power.

[koala]

@dodge_44

it is frustrating to see people come into the hobby with seemingly no cap on what they are willing to pay, which pretty much eliminates all negotiating power

They are buyers too

Those that priced out collectors in 2016 or 2020 can be priced out today if they don’t adapt, it is the nature of competition with this much money pouring into Pokémon

[dodge_44]

Even if you adapt by buying cheaper cards or collecting different things, you’re still priced out by definition. People like to blame buyers for not doing mental gymnastics to cope with being priced out. Whatever year it is, being priced out is not fun. And let’s be honest that the amount of money going into the hobby this year is completely different and pricing out more people too.

[Ragdajin]

@Dyl

creating art of your favorite Pokemon

[implode]

The price increases can be super frustrating and demotivating, but coping by claiming everything is inorganic and manipulation isn’t really helpful either.

Grey Felt Hat was not manipulated. In the same way people claim the card shouldn’t be worth as much as it is due to the population, the population should show that the high prices are majorly not due to manipulation. It’s just not feasible in this space to effectively manipulate the price of an item that has tens of thousands of copies available at any given time.

[kpod]

This feels like a life lesson in you can’t always get or have what you want

[churlocker]

I would also offer that it is probably easier than ever to get a “false positive” when looking at sold data for “market manipulation.”

There are huge entities like GameStop, power sellers on Live eCom websites, etc. that have pricing autonomy within their lane. Their incentives lead them to purchase huge quantities of cards at prices that are as much as 100% of the market value that we understand a card to have based on the competitive, decentralized marketplaces we are used to like eBay.

This can present 1:1 as an old-school buyout because it is, in essence, a buyout. But rather than being compelled by speculation or malicious shadow entities hellbent on pushing the CardLadder price up to dupe customers, it is a legitimate arbitrage between a market paying less and a market paying more.

eBay is losing market share rapidly*. 10 years ago, it would not have been hyperbole to speculate that 99% of online Pokemon trading card sales take place on eBay. The literal, trackable sales numbers of auction houses alone show that this can no longer be true, before you even consider more difficult to track, but massive in their own right, entities like WhatNot. The decentralization of the sales makes understanding pricing data a little more difficult. It also creates a lot of opportunities for arbitrage for people savvy in the differences between what different marketplaces are earning.

*noting: eBay is still the gold standard, where I price my own cards, where I sell many of my cards, and in a significant lead. But they have underperformed in capturing new growth over the last 5 years. This statement is not an indictment of eBay as a platform, but rather an observation of the last 5 years of growth and the rise of new, significant entities producing real sales to real consumers with real cards. This feels contextually important to understand if you’re using eBay to price and struggling to understand sold data for select cards.