Why don't people just stamp 1st edition on cards?

[modestmudkip]

why eseries is best

[kinggr]

@pfm

2 words:cert number

I saw that your argument implied older certs would be more desirable due to the lack of incentive to alter a card with a 1st edition stamp. If I understood your point correctly, keep in mind that older certs come with the lack of aftermarket stamp authentication experience offered to them by @fazool

I know you aren’t saying old certs are 100% safe, but I just wanted to bring up my point that a newer cert such as today would have been authenticated after PSA’s fake stamp lesson.

[smokemon]

@zorloth

@smokemon

Is that what they mean when Brad looks like Chad?

Ok, that’s actually pretty funny lol. Totally unintended double-meaning.

I don’t understand that photo, though. It’s the exact same person on both sides?

I don’t understand it either. Maybe I should’ve altered the beard

[ripguyfawkes]

@smokemon

@zorloth

… a well-trimmed Beta can look damn near identical to an Alpha.

Is that what they mean when Brad looks like Chad?

My interpretation is that Japanese 1st Ed is just as dope as Wotc 1st Ed.

[smokemon]

Ok time for a rememe

[pfm]

@kinggr

@pfm

2 words:cert number

I saw that your argument implied older certs would be more desirable due to the lack of incentive to alter a card with a 1st edition stamp. If I understood your point correctly, keep in mind that older certs come with the lack of aftermarket stamp authentication experience offered to them by @fazool

I know you aren’t saying old certs are 100% safe, but I just wanted to bring up my point that a newer cert such as today would have been authenticated after PSA’s fake stamp lesson.

The argument in favour of old certs is based on a future where a large number of fake stamped cards are being graded. Any new cert has a non-trivial probability of being fake and old certs (say, anything prior to today) had a virtually zero percent chance of having a fake stamp because it’s just not a thing yet. It’s just a level of provenance that already exists in an analogous way for things that are commonly faked in the hobby (boxes, signatures). The premium is associated with the probability the item is legit

Also, the idea that PSA somehow “learned” something from that experience is, frankly, naive.

[KingPokemon]

Best $5,000.00 I ever spent. It’s saved me possibly a million dollars👍.

www.leica-microsystems.com/products/stereo-microscopes-macroscopes/

[sacari]

@KingPokemon

Best $5,000.00 I ever spent. It’s saved me possibly a million dollars👍.

www.leica-microsystems.com/products/stereo-microscopes-macroscopes/

Have you caught any fakes with that microscope you maybe would of bought otherwise?

[zorloth]

@KingPokemon

Best $5,000.00 I ever spent. It’s saved me possibly a million dollars👍.

www.leica-microsystems.com/products/stereo-microscopes-macroscopes/

Wouldn’t a $15 jeweler’s loupe also do the trick? Or do you need that much magnification?

[KingPokemon]

@sacari

@KingPokemon

Best $5,000.00 I ever spent. It’s saved me possibly a million dollars👍.

www.leica-microsystems.com/products/stereo-microscopes-macroscopes/

Have you caught any fakes with that microscope you maybe would of bought otherwise?

Not just “any fake” but every fake. You’ll master it in within a day of set up. You don’t need this good of a one though, but it helps, We have a member here who reps for Leica for anyone interested.

One request though. Don’t ask me why the graders don’t do the same thing, especially for review requests.

[peanuts]

Along King’s point, at the high end, could relying on a densitometer work? The fraudulent stamps are almost certainly of a different ink than the original comp, and are likely to be stamped at a different pressure (and thus diff saturation).

[KingPokemon]

@zorloth

@KingPokemon

Best $5,000.00 I ever spent. It’s saved me possibly a million dollars👍.

www.leica-microsystems.com/products/stereo-microscopes-macroscopes/

Wouldn’t a $15 jeweler’s loupe also do the trick? Or do you need that much magnification?

They catch some bad ones but absolutely not all, which I can attest to. Keep in mind the scammers are getting better and better and with sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line, well, you’d be careful too;)

[KingPokemon]

@peanuts

Along King’s point, at the high end, could relying on a densitometer work? The fraudulent stamps are almost certainly of a different ink than the original comp, and are likely to be stamped at a different pressure (and thus diff saturation).

Not sure but I do know there were different pressures used even with legit ones. Just take the thick/thin stamps which were pressure related.

[fazool]

@mosstastic

@smokemon

I think I just spent an hour reading and digging into that thread. Felt like a movie

I too read every single comment.

It kind of ended anticlimactic. PSA provided the guarantee but several times vouched for its legitimacy. I wonder what changed their minds. Frankly, the whole thread was concerning and now I’m running to check my cards. I’m hoping quality control has improved since then

I can say the only thing that changed their mind was Gary and Scott. At one point they were absolutely refusing to talk to me about it, and were even going to charge me review fees for “wasting their time.”

It took a large amount of calls, and constant pressure for them to even honor the “guarantee” which did not honor market price, but the price I had paid 2 years earlier.

I’m very happy that the charizard I purchased after that one was from Gary, and one he graded himself.

[admiral]

@fazool

@mosstastic

I can say the only thing that changed their mind was Gary and Scott.

I feel bad for regular joes who don’t have access to some of the help this forum can give

And I hope you still got the card Faz

[gildri]

@kingboo64

@gildri

Maybe they are just so good no one can tell and half of the 1st editions are fake now?

X files theme plays

Haha yeah I know it sounds crazy. But hear me out. One of my previous employers had to do some pretty crazy things to keep counterfeit parts, machine, electronics…you name it, out of their supply chain. Was a constant battle. Some fakes were so good they didn’t get discovered for years, if ever. So when it comes to a small printed stamp on a card, I’m betting there are at least a few out there that could fool most of us.

[mosstastic]

@fazool

@mosstastic

I too read every single comment.

It kind of ended anticlimactic. PSA provided the guarantee but several times vouched for its legitimacy. I wonder what changed their minds. Frankly, the whole thread was concerning and now I’m running to check my cards. I’m hoping quality control has improved since then

I can say the only thing that changed their mind was Gary and Scott. At one point they were absolutely refusing to talk to me about it, and were even going to charge me review fees for “wasting their time.”

It took a large amount of calls, and constant pressure for them to even honor the “guarantee” which did not honor market price, but the price I had paid 2 years earlier.

I’m very happy that the charizard I purchased after that one was from Gary, and one he graded himself.

I kept picturing myself in your situation and can’t believe how calm you were, or at least appeared — so good on you. Glad it worked out just fine

[zorloth]

@gildri

@kingboo64

X files theme plays

Haha yeah I know it sounds crazy. But hear me out. One of my previous employers had to do some pretty crazy things to keep counterfeit parts, machine, electronics…you name it, out of their supply chain. Was a constant battle. Some fakes were so good they didn’t get discovered for years, if ever. So when it comes to a small printed stamp on a card, I’m betting there are at least a few out there that could fool most of us.

Maybe at first glance, sure. But it’s impossible (or nearly) to perfectly replicate something that was mass-produced in a very specific way two decades ago. So with the right equipment, any fake should be detectable. Unless, of course, someone actually got ahold of the original printing equipment/ink.

As an aside: This is all assuming that there aren’t any consistent, subtle differences between Shadowless and 1st Edition Base cards (outside of the stamp). Do we know that that Shadowless and 1st Ed. Base minus the stamp were totally identical? Or is it possible there are highly subtle differences that could be detected (along the lines of text alignment in Alpha/Beta)? If so, this would make all of the fake stamp worry moot.

[gildri]

@zorloth,yeah, I can see that working for base set due to such variation in the runs. It wouldn’t surprise me if shadowless vs 1st had material differences. I wonder what the impact would be on other sets though: t17, lugia…I would be curious if anyone has examined shadowless vs 1st under a microscope for other wotc 1st vs non.

I don’t trust myself to be able to distinguish, which is why I stay away from non-graded 1st editions especially as prices keep increasing.

[cullers]

@zorloth

@gildri

Haha yeah I know it sounds crazy. But hear me out. One of my previous employers had to do some pretty crazy things to keep counterfeit parts, machine, electronics…you name it, out of their supply chain. Was a constant battle. Some fakes were so good they didn’t get discovered for years, if ever. So when it comes to a small printed stamp on a card, I’m betting there are at least a few out there that could fool most of us.

Maybe at first glance, sure. But it’s impossible (or nearly) to perfectly replicate something that was mass-produced in a very specific way two decades ago. So with the right equipment, any fake should be detectable. Unless, of course, someone actually got ahold of the original printing equipment/ink.

As an aside: This is all assuming that there aren’t any consistent, subtle differences between Shadowless and 1st Edition Base cards (outside of the stamp). Do we know that that Shadowless and 1st Ed. Base minus the stamp were totally identical? Or is it possible there are highly subtle differences that could be detected (along the lines of text alignment in Alpha/Beta)? If so, this would make all of the fake stamp worry moot.

Shadowless and 1st edition were the same print run. They’re exactly the same minus the stamp.