Here is the second or third post by @smpratte in the TMB thread.
*"The authenticity is directly dependent on the release.
This card was clearly not awarded at the TMB.
If people want to make a pseudo preraichu style authenticity argument, feel free. But it is completely irrelevant."*Are all the extra trophy copies inauthentic then? Did PSA make a mistake by grading them?
But then again, now that we know of the possibility that even earlier graded trophies could be extras, what is the consequence?
IMO the only reasonable thing to do would be to reevaluate the “legitimate release” argument, otherwise all trophy cards would fall in the “not authenticatable” category.
I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think this instance is the same as the card that was handcut. I think the owner being who he is is significant (possibly).
In my head I picture the winners at TMBs each being given the cards on stage, but backups being kept in a separate room just in case. No idea if that was the case, but if extra copies produced weren’t needed, they were probably just kept at the company/given to certain people instead of detroying them.
Look, if some people want to argue that a card owned by one of the creators of the Pokemon TCG, that was directly next to the copies awarded to the winners when they were printed and cut, that had its picture used in the silver Pokemon bible, is not an authentic copy, be my guest.
I just don’t think you’ll find many people who agree with that, and as such I wouldn’t expect it to make a huge difference price. Especially when the vast majority of existing trophy cards are not trackable to the award winners.
@muk, Any card coming from Pkonno is almost as good as being released since the provenance is so strong we can see a direct source, I mean a file copy used in official pictures for media releases and print? You can’t compare that to the other examples you mentioned the gold dogs and the TMB they have no provenance and are much further down the list.
Pkonno’s copies have historical significance in themselves, we are lucky he has saved these items one such item that blows my mind is the flyers he has listed from the 4th World Hobby Fair from before Pokemon cards were released. From that humble start handing out flyers to where we are now absolutely incredible.
It depends on the card for me. I would love Pkonno to over time release more of every Snap card (including especially, Magikarp and Pikachu). This would make them more “obtainable” if you are willing to pay, but they are rare regardless of 0 or 5 or 20 or 32 confirmed copies.
The ones that lose appeal for me personally are the No Name numbered Neo-era trophies, because they are not identical “extra copies” but basically a different card due to not having a winners’ name. Since each of these are personalized, listing 3 copies with the same winner would also pose an issue to me. I would love to have a No 1 / No 2 trophy at some point because they have unique Chansey artwork on the card, but if I’m going to spend that much, I would heavily prefer a winner’s copy. Sure beggars can’t be choosers but that is my preference.
Everyone is speaking as if there were 20 of each trophy card listed at affordable prices to the masses…
You can list your preferences but the truth is that there is simply not enough supply to meet the demand. Once a trophy surfaces it almost always ends up in collection permanently.
Moreover, these are all lists of our personal preferences. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but please be understanding that people value things in different ways.
I’m sure that the owner of the overcut TMB didn’t pay pennies for the card so I personally feel it is unfair to, as a community, predetermine its status and label it in a certain way. Despite some strong opinions, people believe it to be an important part of history and until evidence is given to discredit that, we should not be too quick to judge.
As made clear in the way the discussion went, it’s not a matter of “how do we trace the provenance to a trophy winner” but moreso “does it even matter if it was awarded to a winner”.
In my view, Pokemon collectors collect cards, not circumstances. People value the artwork, rarity or context of the card’s supposed release over the exact circumstances in which the card was printed and distributed. You can show me a picture of a 1997 Pikachu trophy and it will give me an emotional response. You show me the picture of a winner, I won’t know who they are. The card is a tangible object that speaks for itself, the circumstances that the card moves from the printer to your hands is just a lost history that you weren’t even involved in until the final step.
These are my feelings. But are people concerned with the origin of their cards? Evidence suggests no.
do people track down or demand evidence of the person who submitted Bill’s PC to Media Factory to get a Masaki promo? Does having that info increase the value?- do people pay more for a Gold Star Raikou that was pulled from a pack on video as evidence of it’s organic distribution?- do people pay less for an Art Academy card sold by Collector’s Cache?- do people refuse to buy from pkonno?
It’s very clear that people care more about the cards themselves than the circumstances they were acquired.
The rest of this will be a response to @muk and the conversation that came out of it.
You keep asking for where the line should be drawn and talking about e4’s attitude to each of these individual situations as if it was consistent. E4 is not smpratte in a room of parrots. The threads where these cards are discussed might have a dominant tone but they don’t hit 10+ pages if everyone is agreeing. I didn’t agree with many of those threads and I’ve had multiple discussions with smpratte and others disagreeing with their position on many of these cards (on discord). While my main point in this post is that in general people don’t care about the release context, everyone is different and everyone will draw a different line on different cards for different reasons.
But many of the other cards you brought up are unique exceptions to this trend of “extra copies” which is why you will see what appears to be “the forum” changing it’s mind or making exceptions:
The miscut TMB fails a basic parameter of “being a Pokemon card”, ie. the shape. For better or for worse, it transcends just being a TMB because of the cut. Whether you value it more or less because of that, the point is people aren’t going to treat it as just another TMB card.
With the prototype Blastoise, the value is necessarily tied to the actual story and context of each copy’s production which is the complete reverse any of these “extra copy” trophy cards
The video of the Gold Star legendary dogs is what bothered people. Binders with literally thousands of copies. If pkonno released a similar video with snap cards or illustrators, you better believe this thread would take a different tone.
This thread is a great example how knowledge is power. In short extra trophy cards weren’t sold in the past for a couple reasons. There is a reason pkonno showed up in the past couple years.
Regardless The market is so large there are buyers for everything. I already get buyers who value province, others don’t care and simply want the card. Ultimately even with the extra copies, which exist for all cards (English and Japanese), there isn’t anywhere near enough supply to meet demand. Every extra copy in English and Japanese is absorbed, most at a higher price.
I don’t think these super rare collectibles will lose value just because a few more authentic cards are leaked into the hobby. Trying to add a gatekeeping level/tier to make one a “true trophy” and the other simply a “factory copy” seems unnecessary and only intended to devalue other collectors cards or new buyers with an opportunity to purchase a big ticket item.
Okay but do you still stand by your statement of 2018 that “the authenticity is directly dependent on the release”?
Or is “sold by pkonno” now a seperate category of “legitimate release” (as @reinasierpe sort of suggested)?
Not trying to offend anyone here just make things clear for myself.
@muk, Not sure which quote you are taking out of context, but its entirely about that; context. I’m guessing that quote was from the miscut tmb, which isn’t the same as the pkonno cards.
Not trying to speak for Scott but I think he clarified his position on that even within that old thread. That one card is cut differently and he called it an abortion. He did say that it was different than identical copies from the factory
I’m sure most Raptors fans would rather own the championship ring awarded to Kyle Lowry or, more appropriately, Kawhi Leonard, than the one awarded to Drake. It’s the same reason why fans will bid tens of thousands (or even hundreds of thousands) of dollars for a gross, sweaty game-worn jersey. They aren’t going to bid that same amount for a jersey fresh from the factory.
The difference with trophy cards is that no one really knows who the hell the award winners are.
No. That was a rhetorical question. The rings are identical and fetch the same price. The only way one ring is valued more is if it comes with something extra, such as sigs/paperwork/photos/thread of posession from one person to another leading back to the player. Even then, some people might prefer having the ring from Drake. He’s a big deal too. My point is that the cards are the same and the market likely doesn’t care about sentiment and personal feelings when it comes to distribution. It’s gonna be first come, first served, to the highest bidder.
Thank you everyone for answering, your inputs did indeed help me to build a solid opinion on that matter.
I’m still glad I brought it up as the topic has been bugging me for a while now.
And sorry for kinda derailing your thread @japanime
People who buy a raptors championship ring are likely a fan of the team, not the player. Or perhaps they just collect championship rings from all the diff teams because they are a fan of the sport. But yes thats why i used the analogy vs the original when it came to some jewelers test version. It isnt about who that specific ring belonged to, just that it’s the real deal.
I think @pkmnflyingmaster generally hit the nail on the head. One thing I want to comment on though is the comparison between the first two examples (Masaki and Dogs) and the latter two (trophies/prizes). I think the reason we’re examining these trophies/prizes (replace Art Academy with SNAP) as opposed to your Masakis and Gold Star Dogs is because they were supposed to have extremely pointed and limited releases. It becomes easier to quantify copies of a card where ONLY 100 Art Academy cards were given to one individual who promised not to sell as opposed to Masaki cards where anyone could have gotten them. Or maybe a 1997 trophy that’s only supposed to have 4 copies awarded vs. the Gold Star Dogs which were supposed to be available on shelves across the world. I think it’s valid to question this because the extra copies idea is still fairly new but I’m in the same camp as you (and I think most other collectors) when we just want the card, the art, and the idea behind it and the exact release (or lack thereof) of that exact copy isn’t too concerning.
I think this is a really solid discussion about why we collect the cards we collect.
