@gottaketchumall, That is still pretty harsh man. It isn’t inherently tax evasion if something is sent FF.
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@smpratte I said:
Which admittedly is presumptuous on my part though I would wager a hefty sum that it is true especially given the wiggle room that the vague qualifier “many” affords me.
That was really all you took from my post? Refuting a point that I wasn’t even making?
@gottaketchumall, I don’t have anything against you man but you just have to be careful how you talk to people and how it can come off as. Usually a lot of your post always seems like you are trying to demean someone. At the end of the day we’re all just asking for advice and we are friends here with a common interest 
I’m not trying to say people should be in jail or crucified over it…
It’s just that some people are just so logically inconsistent sometimes when it comes to what is okay and what is not. So laid back and fine with theft of services and/or tax evasion yet pack weighing something which isn’t even illegal is so much more of a hot button topic. That same laid back attitude and line of reasoning is also often used by “custom”/“proxy” card makers to justify what they do as well.
@gottaketchumall, Fake cards are black and white, FF is more subjective. Venmo, owned by paypal, is an entire app based on the FF payment model. Transferring money without fees, like a bank wire, but less cumbersome. Which is the main reason why people use FF.
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I do friends and family with all my friends and family. I’ve probably done a thousand f&f transactions just with my friends here.
Now would I do it with strangers on eBay, Facebook, or Instagram? I’d agree with Ketchum in those instances cause they’re strangers.
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its not inconsistent. they only care about the things that would effect them. mugging paypal outa 0.50c using FF doesnt hurt them, people selling them packs with no holo or fake cards does so thats why they care. but it is funny to see like you said only issues with things like that but not the other things they do XD
if you treat laws like guidelines and think for yourself you will be fine. FF is fine for some things but not others. FF in this case doesnt mean fuck all from my understanding tho even if it wasnt FF payment and the girl called her back and said it wasnt me that bought this charge it back they still will. paypal is just risky for every1
@gottaketchumall
I called my wife a thief haha.
I have the same issue of typing things out bluntly and them coming off as emotional. Because of that, I have most of my ebay responses pre-typed out and pre-wife approved. It really helped out my feedback rating while saying the same exact thing but in an softer typing tone.
I’m 100% in line with you on this as stealing from paypal when it is not “Friends & Family”. If you don’t like the fees then get paid another way. My wife considered this person as a “friend”, but she never has met her…(I think the girl is in contact with her credit card company to try and fix the issue).
SO from what I read this is something Paypal does. I was really surprised when my wife brought a payment issue that I had never seen before. It still really surprised me that Paypal will do this without ever contacting the receiver on the money.
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@thecharizardauthorty it is definitely good to bring it to the attention of members here as it definitely has an effect on many. Hopefully it will get your wife to start paying the 2.9% plus 30 cents for the valuable service that Paypal provides, haha.
@smpratte I generally agree with you on things or if I don’t agree I can usually at least follow your line of reasoning. To stop beating the dead horse I will just say we have to agree to disagree as we are so far apart on this which is confusing to me because I don’t think I am stating anything but plain fact and facts are something that don’t have room for two sides of “opinion” on them.
I’m vaguely familiar with Venmo and so couldn’t speak directly of their policies. But they can:
venmo.com/legal/us-user-agreement/
Maybe everything would have come across much softer if I added the disclaimer that I on occasion have accepted FF for some of my past sales because I in fact have. It isn’t a favorite thing to do and I never feel the best about doing it when I do because as I also mentioned it is theft of services and also usually tied to tax evasion. *Not on my part* but in writing values down for customs which again has me in dicey places morally, but so many people constantly feel so easy about.
As an analogy, I also drive over the speed limit any given day that I operate a motor vehicle. It is factually the wrong thing to do and by definition a traffic infraction. 31 in a 30 isn’t as bad as 50 in a 30 but it is still by definition a traffic infraction and many many people do both and get away with them everyday.
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Venmo must be reading our thread. They literally updated their Q&A post 28 minutes ago.
(my highlights and underlines) Source
@smpratte Venmo did indeed start as a fee free platform solely around the FF model as you mentioned but as with any other business they are solely in business to make money. They have since expanded and are not solely fee free. They offer business accounts and charge fees for various things. They do this in exchange for a service. Use of their platform and/or service for anything outside of their TOS or used in any way to avoid the fees they charge for said service is by definition theft of services and a very black and white matter.
Venmo is completely free unless you send with a credit card. Majority of its usage are personal no fee transactions. You can make an account and actually see people’s transactions that are posted publicly. Its almost entirely friends or family paying each other.
Hey guys, I’m sorry for your misfortunes with the FF chargebacks. Those payments aren’t covered with PayPals protection policy Unfortunately. I am aware of this from selling sneakers myself I have read that scammers prefer to use that method to scam others and that’s why I am very hesitant to sell personally. I think you can make invoices yourself through PayPal and that will provide you seller protection as long as you follow their guidelines; item description, tracking number, etc.
www.paypal.com/us/brc/article/seller-protection
This article may help
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I think we’re missing an important point here. Chargebacks aren’t initiated by paypal, venmo or whatever payment service you use. They are initiated by the card issuer based on claims of fraudulent activity.
Regardless if you pay FF or G&S, the transaction is always susceptible to a potentially dispute and consequent chargeback by the card issuer or the bank. In these cases the bank initiates a request for information to the merchant (paypal) and paypal processes it and reverses the transaction. If you as the seller have enough evidence and picked the correct option paypal will most likely have your back, otherwise you’ll be liable for the reversed transaction plus paypal’s cost of processing the dispute with the bank.
I deal with chargebacks on a daily basis as part of my job and can assure you that most merchants don’t even bother trying to put the dispute into question. As soon as that request for information comes through from the bank/card issuer, a refund is immediately sent before the chargeback process sees through to completion. Reason being, if a merchant has a chargeback rate above 5% of its transactions, it will be subject to penalties by card issuers and their ability to accept payments may ultimately be revoked, so as soon as they get the slightest threat of a chargeback, they immediately issue a refund as it is safer to refund and count it as a cost to doing business, than it is to risk seeing the chargeback through and suffer a penalty if it ends up materializing.
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Venmo is a poor comparison. It is good for cases such as splitting the bill for a meal between friends. This is also a good use for PayPal FF.
However, buying actual goods and services is meant to be done through PayPal GS. That is black and white and simply fact as @gottaketchumall stated. I’ve received and sent payments through FF for cards and probably will again in the future, but at least I can acknowledge I’m not using PayPal properly in these cases.
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This is all I was trying to say @charizandrew and I think I figured out why it wasn’t getting across.
I need to take a page out of Kevin’s book.
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I once paid FF for a 4 figure pokemon card and never revieved it. Luckily I used my credit card to pay and was able to report a fraud to the card company (including emails as proof). Paypal then refunded me. If the credit card company doesnt accept a payment then paypal has no choice but to refund.
That is an absolute nightmare! I remember in the pokegym days there was a guy going around selling “english pika trophies”. I was close to FF him with partial trade. Guy ended up being a scammer. He was luckily banned a couple days before I could get everything ready.
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I think how you utilize the different services PayPal offers should be secondary to the glaring issues with taking money out of an account for any reason without an obvious and immediate notification.
My takeaway from this isn’t “don’t use F/F payments.” It is “PayPal is being lazy on notifying its users about the movement of their money.”
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@funmonkey54 you are correct that it would be a glaring issue if that was indeed the case. I am very doubtful there was no notification of any kind though.
www.paypal.com/us/brc/article/customer-disputes-claims-chargebacks-bank-reversals
^Paypal lists the various types of disputes and a quick search of my e-mail for “paypal” reversal, dispute, chargeback, claim brings up multiple of every kind. Though I don’t think I’ve had them all through F&F payments, I’ve had multiple of each kind over the years and have multiple e-mails for each instance throughout the process. I’m assuming it is a case of oversight due to cluttered e-mails, mixed up folders or something of that sort.