I really don’t want to take this too off topic but Uber is a rough example to use. It’s pretty easy to be disruptive when you take a $30B operating loss across 10 years to subsidize your product.
It’s easy to erode the existing competition when you can set money on fire. And today the service is more expensive and lower quality than it has ever been because the competition is weakened. They ran out of disruption juice and now have to actually become profitable which apparently requires creating the minimally acceptable service.
Correction to this post I made:
Just realised there is no need for the additional tamper proof security label and the team bag. You can CT scan the product with that still on. All you need therefore is for the customer to put their product into a team bag and secure it with a security label. If that label is removed, the customer would know it’s been tampered with.
On top of this, Uber treats the drivers like ass and actively lobbies in the US to reduce the minimum required benefits and pay that they offer their drivers.
I have no idea if this is technologically feasible but my suggestion would be:
Seal the pack in a transparent plastic bag and affix a tamper-proof seal to it
Attach a printed label with a unique serial code
Apply a contrast agent / material with visible color change when exposed to the CT scan to the printed label (This is the part I’m not sure on–does the color actually visibly change?)
Take a “before” photo for that item showing the serial code label pre-scan.
Scan the item
Take an “after” photo for the item showing the serial code + the now color-changed label
Upload all the items to the customer
This allows people to have photographic proof that the item scanned is the same one they got back.
We have discussed this but have not yet been able to locate a reasonably priced product. The only way this could work is if the client places a dosimeter tag inside of each package. All this would do is prove it was exposed, but still doesn’t provide traceability to the product or prove a scan belongs to said product - unless the dose sticker has a visible serial number witnessed in the scan data.
Another factor is we would likely need to send these to the client which would increase cost through shipping and product cost.
My question is to what extent can this technology be streamlined and how far can industry competition push the price down? I think $60-75 is too cost prohibitive to affect most of the market (including most vintage). I know nothing about the overhead costs though . . .but if pack/box scanning ever makes it below $20, then the implications are catastrophic and will cross-over into every area of the market. Full disclosure: I hate everything about this.
So far i think the best suggestion here is partnering with a company like PSA to encapsulate, or otherwise including encapsulation with the service. A team bag with a tamper seal is not enough imo its just a thin plastic bag. Seems too easy to tamper with for protecting potentially thousands of dollars
I’ve been thinking a lot since the news broke out, and I’m still not sure about this line of thought, but maybe it’s worth sharing it and trying to add value to this debate.
So, analyzing what we have, the sealed product market will change forever. The whole landscape will shake once the technology is out (because this has likely been used privately in the past). I believe that this is not a good thing for the hobby, but it is what it is. We must remember that those are cardboard boxes and plastic bags, and a lot of money was involved …. So sooner or later, a trick will come out.
With that said, let’s assume that we are at a breakpoint due to a new technology. And there is a private third party implementing it. Wouldn’t you (and everyone affected) like to be involved in discussing how to use this new technology in favor of your passion/hobby?
I’m honestly surprised about the appearance of @IndustrialInspection on the forum, trying to clarify information and taking feedback on how to apply this in the best possible way.
We have to remember that there will be other companies that will not even care about our opinion or the TCG universe at all.
I’m not defending what they are doing with the technology so far, and in the end, it could end up in total chaos, but my primary outcome of this situation would be: let’s try to be part of the solution. Clearly, this is the right place to be if a company wants to hear the opinion/feedback from the community. Let’s give them that and hope for the best. The rest is out of our control.
I actually don’t think partnering with a grading company is a good business idea. It’s easier for us, the consumer, to have a trusted brand name and known process to submit things to. But from the business side, PSA or CGC would be pretty brutal and slow to work with and eventually would aim to cut you out of the equation in the long run.
Your best bet is to just set up a minimally acceptable service, set up some very basic tamper-proofing system, maybe an online option to view the scans via some barcode or qr code. Then find a person/partner that understands the hobby and has a decent supply of packs. Pay them or give them some kind of benefit to bring the packs to you and to do a series of example runs to nail down the procedure. This person should be knowledgeable enough to provide the feedback needed as to whether this service works and what the pain points are.
The average consumer will want things like guarantees, rigid encapsulation, turnaround time information. All this stuff is industry standard but frankly your first customers should and will not be people with this level of expectation. Support the early adopters first, learn from them and slowly build up to growing your service after you’ve figured it out.
I think a lot of the advice so far has been pointing in the right direction but is more of long term goals rather than what you should be concerned with on day one. Start by finding that one early adopter that will seriously help you out in figuring out all the basic requirements of the service.
It’s too late now, this idea won’t just vanish if this one company drops it. There’s a few different issues- there will likely be multiple companies trying to offer this scanning service for a profit now but then there’s also random people who already happen to have access to this type of equipment in their everyday lives from their jobs or whatever who could also just scan packs on their own.
There could be some hospital worker or scientist/researcher with access to this type of scanning equipment buying vintage packs right now to start scanning this week. It’s even possible someone has already been scanning packs this whole time but never announced it publicly.
It will likely get to the point in the next few years where you’ll have to assume every product you didn’t personally buy directly from a retail store or from the pokemon center could have been scanned.
As someone who has been on the outside of vintage sealed market until just recently and have started planning to make some purchases, this is really disheartening and turns me off to it. No, I dont plan to buy sealed 1st edition Neo Genesis and open it anytime soon, but this just makes me feel like the wealthier members of this hobby have been doing this for much longer than we’re realizing and a lot of these higher end packs that are still out there quite possibly have been searched…
To ease your worries, I can guarantee the wealthiest members couldn’t care less. This is more for streamers, or people who frequently open sealed product. Even then, the application is still very niche.
I think the concern for scamming is not a problem you can prevent. No matter how much effort you put into tamper proofing, the problem will remain constant in back of everyone’s mind. You will constantly be doubted and blamed for any negative encounter or outcome. You will always be the first blame even if it’s not your fault. The company’s reputation will be tied to constant criticism, false accusations, or even future legal lawsuits. You will be under a microscope. Especially since you are first to market this service to the masses.
The risk far outweighs the benefit.
I see people going down the rabbit hole of what else can be scanned to game the system? Scratch off lottery tickets?
Havent seen it mentioned, but whats the protocol with damaged items as well? Id imagine after scanning if the item was to get majorly damaged after its scanned in transit there would be a huge negative backlash. Could always insure it, but if the scan had something MUCH MORE than what insurance covered then things might get dicey. Just some food for thought.
I think tamper proof from client end is a great idea. Maybe verification of tamper seal numbers and images for in and out boarding of your service would cover a chain of custody from a legitimacy standpoint
There is no way this doesn’t have a massive impact on vintage sealed product. I agree with others’ feelings that it’s a shame of how profit-focused and optimized everything about collecting Pokemon cards has become. But I don’t think it’s fair to blame these industrial scanning guys. There are posts on e4 and reddit and twitter going back 4 or 5+ years discussing this topic, is was bound to happen at some point, I guess.
My prediction is that similar to how everyone assumes loose vintage packs have been weighed unless you see the pack come out of the box, it will be a similar case with scanning. Any potentially high-value sealed product will be assumed to have been scanned, regardless of whether it actually has been.
And over time, as more and more sealed packs and boxes are scanned, the highest-value packs will be kept or ripped (since the owner knows there’s a Charizard or Rayquaza Gold * or whatever chase card inside), and the rest will be sold off.
I don’t see why you need to mail the customer the indicator labels. When we mail cards to places like PSA / BGS / CGC we aren’t afraid that they’re going to swap out the cards on us before grading & encapsulation. That is part of company trust that is being paid for here.
Once the sealed product arrives at your facility, you put the sealed product in a transparent, tamper-proof plastic bag
On the indicator label, print out (or etch into) the label the serial number. You want something that will show up on the scan.
Apply the label to the sealed product in the tamper-proof bag
Deliver to the customer before, after, and scan photos with the serial number visible in scans
