# WOTC split from Hasbro **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Tags:** general-board\ **Created:** [February 19, 2022, 12:38am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324 "2022-02-19T00:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![smpratte](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/smpratte/32/79511_2.png) [@smpratte](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/smpratte)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 12:38am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/1 "2022-02-19T00:38:06Z")
Apparently there is a move from a minority share holder to split WOTC from Hasbro. Curious to see if this has any legs: [www.google.com/amp/s/comicbook.com/gaming/amp/news/hasbro-investor-nominates-former-pro-magic-player-to-board-as-part-of-potential-wizards-of-the-coast-split/](https://www.google.com/amp/s/comicbook.com/gaming/amp/news/hasbro-investor-nominates-former-pro-magic-player-to-board-as-part-of-potential-wizards-of-the-coast-split/) ---
**Author:** ![wooltchi](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/wooltchi/32/2438_2.png) [@wooltchi](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/wooltchi)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 12:46am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/2 "2022-02-19T00:46:23Z")
How will this affect my wotc promos? ![](https://www.elitefourum.com/uploads/default/original/2X/e/e4f49fbbcd58897927a26959eb2b7d4b52a1bcea.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![seafoamarticuno](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/seafoamarticuno/32/97280_2.png) [@seafoamarticuno](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/seafoamarticuno)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 3:12am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/3 "2022-02-19T03:12:37Z")
Essentially, WotC’s franchises have much higher growth potential than most of Hasbro’s other, more traditional, toy franchises. Think MtG vs. Monopoly… MtG, etc.: physical cards, events, digital cards, digital subscriptions, … Monopoly: physical board game So the activist investor feels the P/E for WotC is being undervalued because it’s blended in with all the lower performing Hasbro brands.’ Rudy put out a video with a good overview of this. ---
**Author:** ![filthynwah](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/filthynwah/32/156027_2.png) [@filthynwah](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/filthynwah)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 4:25am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/4 "2022-02-19T04:25:48Z")
If I were runninng Hasbro I’d watch to eject that cancerous company as soon as I possibly could… ---
**Author:** ![fazool](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/fazool/32/55118_2.png) [@fazool](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/fazool)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 5:20am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/5 "2022-02-19T05:20:01Z")
> [@filthynwah](#): > > If I were runninng Hasbro I’d watch to eject that cancerous company as soon as I possibly could… That company that is making 75% of their profits? [icv2.com/articles/news/view/48207/wotc-segment-75-hasbro-profits-q1](https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/48207/wotc-segment-75-hasbro-profits-q1) ---
**Author:** ![xileets](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/xileets/32/297561_2.png) [@xileets](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/xileets)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 7:11am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/6 "2022-02-19T07:11:35Z")
As a Magic collector and player, my first thought was, “Could this mean an end to the 'MTG and ’ products that have been flowing from the WotC machine?” 😆 ---
**Author:** ![lavendergengar](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/lavendergengar/32/2270_2.png) [@lavendergengar](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/lavendergengar)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 10:30am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/7 "2022-02-19T10:30:59Z")
> [@xileets](#): > > As a Magic collector and player, my first thought was, “Could this mean an end to the ‘MTG and ’ products that have been flowing from the WotC machine?” 😆 Mtg has been going to shit with Hasbro treating it as a product first and a game second. ---
**Author:** ![pichufan](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/pichufan/32/28182_2.png) [@pichufan](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/pichufan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 10:53am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/8 "2022-02-19T10:53:23Z")
> [@seafoamarticuno](#): > > Essentially, WotC’s franchises have much higher growth potential than most of Hasbro’s other, more traditional, toy franchises. Think MtG vs. Monopoly… > > MtG, etc.: physical cards, events, digital cards, digital subscriptions, … > Monopoly: physical board game I think you’re greatly underestimating board game engagement and profitability. There is just as much interest in board games as there is in TCGs - the only difference is that TCGs have a large secondary market whereas board games do not (though this doesn’t really benefit the companies all that much). There are plenty of board games with events, digital cards and digital subscriptions - including Monopoly. Monopoly is one of the largest online gambling franchises as well. The Monopoly world championships take place every 4-8 years with the last one being held in 2015, awarding the winner a cash prize of $20,850. ---
**Author:** ![filthynwah](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/filthynwah/32/156027_2.png) [@filthynwah](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/filthynwah)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 12:04pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/10 "2022-02-19T12:04:50Z")
> [@fazool](#): > > > [@filthynwah](#): > > > > If I were runninng Hasbro I’d watch to eject that cancerous company as soon as I possibly could… > > That company that is making 75% of their profits? > > [icv2.com/articles/news/view/48207/wotc-segment-75-hasbro-profits-q1](https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/48207/wotc-segment-75-hasbro-profits-q1) Yep, that one. ---
**Author:** ![zorloth](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/zorloth/32/1561_2.png) [@zorloth](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/zorloth)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 1:15pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/11 "2022-02-19T13:15:48Z")
> [@pichufan](#): > > > [@seafoamarticuno](#): > > > > Essentially, WotC’s franchises have much higher growth potential than most of Hasbro’s other, more traditional, toy franchises. Think MtG vs. Monopoly… > > > > MtG, etc.: physical cards, events, digital cards, digital subscriptions, … > > Monopoly: physical board game > > I think you’re greatly underestimating board game engagement and profitability. There is just as much interest in board games as there is in TCGs - the only difference is that TCGs have a large secondary market whereas board games do not (though this doesn’t really benefit the companies all that much). > > There are plenty of board games with events, digital cards and digital subscriptions - including Monopoly. Monopoly is one of the largest online gambling franchises as well. The Monopoly world championships take place every 4-8 years with the last one being held in 2015, awarding the winner a cash prize of $20,850. There’s nothing to underestimate – [Alta Fox put out a 100-page report with the numbers.](https://freethewizards.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Alta-Fox-HAS-Presentation-Final.pdf) MTG grossed nearly $1b in 2021, with every other Hasbro-owned card/tabletop game _combined_ grossing $500m. Monopoly is peanuts compared to WotC’s value to Hasbro. As the report puts it: “our view is that Hasbro is now a ‘Wizards of the Coast’ business that also happens to make toys.” ---
**Author:** ![c0ll3ct0r](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/c0ll3ct0r/32/26306_2.png) [@c0ll3ct0r](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/c0ll3ct0r)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/12 "2022-02-19T14:29:55Z")
Interesting how the newly announced WOTC president, Cynthia W. Williams, and the new General Manager of Digital Gaming, Tim Fields, both have deep history with Microsoft’s Xbox department. Also interesting how the former President and COO of WOTC and Digital Gaming, Chris Cocks, is now becoming the new Hasbro CEO. ---
**Author:** ![seafoamarticuno](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/seafoamarticuno/32/97280_2.png) [@seafoamarticuno](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/seafoamarticuno)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 4:38pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/13 "2022-02-19T16:38:58Z")
> [@zorloth](#): > > > [@pichufan](#): > > > > I think you’re greatly underestimating board game engagement and profitability. There is just as much interest in board games as there is in TCGs - the only difference is that TCGs have a large secondary market whereas board games do not (though this doesn’t really benefit the companies all that much). > > > > There are plenty of board games with events, digital cards and digital subscriptions - including Monopoly. Monopoly is one of the largest online gambling franchises as well. The Monopoly world championships take place every 4-8 years with the last one being held in 2015, awarding the winner a cash prize of $20,850. > > There’s nothing to underestimate – [Alta Fox put out a 100-page report with the numbers.](https://freethewizards.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Alta-Fox-HAS-Presentation-Final.pdf) MTG grossed nearly $1b in 2021, with every other Hasbro-owned card/tabletop game _combined_ grossing $500m. Monopoly is peanuts compared to WotC’s value to Hasbro. > > As the report puts it: “our view is that Hasbro is now a ‘Wizards of the Coast’ business that also happens to make toys.” Fascinating deck to read through. Obviously a lot of bias from the perspective of alta fox, but some very interesting insights, nonetheless. Probably a lot of similarities between MtG and Pokemon TCG that can be inferred from that report. @pichufan, all very fair points. Monopoly likely is a more famous/well-known brand, has a popular mobile app that is monetized, etc. But I think the main difference is at the core of each game… with MtG (or Pokemon, Yugioh, etc.) there will always be a new set to buy in a few months; always a desire to buy one more pack or box; always the chase of pulling the card you really want. Monopoly at its core hasn’t changed in 50?+ years. There’s a mobile game, and tournaments, but nowhere near the scale or future growth potential of top-tier TCGs. Recurring revenue is one of the most important aspects investors are looking for & factors of a company’s P/E ratio. So even if Monopoly and MtG both grossed the same amount, if investors buy into Alta Fox’s argument, MtG will always be valued significantly higher, given investors’ sentiments of recent years. ---
**Author:** ![pichufan](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/pichufan/32/28182_2.png) [@pichufan](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/pichufan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/14 "2022-02-19T18:58:19Z")
> [@zorloth](#): > > > [@pichufan](#): > > > > I think you’re greatly underestimating board game engagement and profitability. There is just as much interest in board games as there is in TCGs - the only difference is that TCGs have a large secondary market whereas board games do not (though this doesn’t really benefit the companies all that much). > > > > There are plenty of board games with events, digital cards and digital subscriptions - including Monopoly. Monopoly is one of the largest online gambling franchises as well. The Monopoly world championships take place every 4-8 years with the last one being held in 2015, awarding the winner a cash prize of $20,850. > > There’s nothing to underestimate – [Alta Fox put out a 100-page report with the numbers.](https://freethewizards.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Alta-Fox-HAS-Presentation-Final.pdf) MTG grossed nearly $1b in 2021, with every other Hasbro-owned card/tabletop game _combined_ grossing $500m. Monopoly is peanuts compared to WotC’s value to Hasbro. > > As the report puts it: “our view is that Hasbro is now a ‘Wizards of the Coast’ business that also happens to make toys.” My comment wasn’t about this WotC/Hasbro split or even MTG/Monopoly, rather the incorrect comparison that TCGs have events, digital products and subscriptions whereas board games do not. A lot of especially successful board games have regional and world championships, they have a digital presence and offer subscription-based services - it’s not much different from successful TCGs in that regard. I think a generic TCG stacked up against a generic board game would have a pretty uniform split. If I was to comment on a WotC/Hasbro split I’d say that I think a lot of WotC’s current value is bolstered by added interest in TCGs in general throughout the pandemic and - I say this as no investor, just a spectator - I wouldn’t be too certain that WotC’s upward trend will continue. ---
**Author:** ![zorloth](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/zorloth/32/1561_2.png) [@zorloth](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/zorloth)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 8:51pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/15 "2022-02-19T20:51:18Z")
> [@pichufan](#): > > > [@zorloth](#): > > > > There’s nothing to underestimate – [Alta Fox put out a 100-page report with the numbers.](https://freethewizards.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Alta-Fox-HAS-Presentation-Final.pdf) MTG grossed nearly $1b in 2021, with every other Hasbro-owned card/tabletop game _combined_ grossing $500m. Monopoly is peanuts compared to WotC’s value to Hasbro. > > > > As the report puts it: “our view is that Hasbro is now a ‘Wizards of the Coast’ business that also happens to make toys.” > > My comment wasn’t about this WotC/Hasbro split or even MTG/Monopoly, rather the incorrect comparison that TCGs have events, digital products and subscriptions whereas board games do not. A lot of especially successful board games have regional and world championships, they have a digital presence and offer subscription-based services - it’s not much different from successful TCGs in that regard. > > I think a generic TCG stacked up against a generic board game would have a pretty uniform split. > > If I was to comment on a WotC/Hasbro split I’d say that I think a lot of WotC’s current value is bolstered by added interest in TCGs in general throughout the pandemic and - I say this as no investor, just a spectator - I wouldn’t be too certain that WotC’s upward trend will continue. The Pokemon TCG has had periods of extraordinary popularity as well as periods of dormancy. MTG’s popularity has historically functioned much differently. It has never had periods of dormancy, nor has it ever reached the heights of popularity that Pokemon has experienced. It’s just been consistently very popular every second of every day since late 1993. MTG sales increased during the pandemic, but so did board game sales. WotC was Hasbro’s most valuable asset pre-pandemic, and will almost certainly (IMO) remain so post-pandemic. I agree that TCGs are particularly trendy right now, but I don’t think MTG was/is the primary beneficiary of this renewed interest. From what I can tell, the people buying/playing MTG are people who were already doing it pre-pandemic. Relatively different situation from Pokemon, and _extremely_ different situation from flash-in-the-pan TCGs like Meta Zoo. ---
**Author:** ![sandmantheenless](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/sandmantheenless/32/626_2.png) [@sandmantheenless](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/sandmantheenless)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/16 "2022-02-20T17:31:30Z")
With GE and Johnson and Johnson spinning off units into separate companies, it definitely looks to be in vogue to spin off right now. ---
**Author:** ![zorloth](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/zorloth/32/1561_2.png) [@zorloth](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/zorloth)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2022, 11:14pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/18 "2022-02-20T23:14:58Z")
> [@anon83099482](#): > > > [@zorloth](#): > > > > The Pokemon TCG has had periods of extraordinary popularity as well as periods of dormancy. MTG’s popularity has historically functioned much differently. It has never had periods of dormancy, nor has it ever reached the heights of popularity that Pokemon has experienced. It’s just been consistently very popular every second of every day since late 1993. > > > > MTG sales increased during the pandemic, but so did board game sales. WotC was Hasbro’s most valuable asset pre-pandemic, and will almost certainly (IMO) remain so post-pandemic. I agree that TCGs are particularly trendy right now, but I don’t think MTG was/is the primary beneficiary of this renewed interest. From what I can tell, the people buying/playing MTG are people who were already doing it pre-pandemic. Relatively different situation from Pokemon, and _extremely_ different situation from flash-in-the-pan TCGs like Meta Zoo. > > The Pokemon TCG having explosive periods that MtG didn’t have is actually why Hasbro owns WotC. > > When Pokemon Base was released it destroyed any predictions that WotC had for how popular it would be, causing the share price of WotC to skyrocket, and large chunks of shareholders to try and sell out. The company didn’t have the money to pay out everyone without going bankrupt, and they couldn’t get a loan for the amount that they needed so Peter Adkison had to sell the company to Hasbro in order to not close down. TIL. Super interesting! I’ve never heard that before, but it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![smpratte](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/smpratte/32/79511_2.png) [@smpratte](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/smpratte)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2022, 12:19am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/19 "2022-02-21T00:19:07Z")
Dan beat me to it! I was going to share that story earlier, but couldn’t remember all the details, and how much of it is the whole reason. A former WOTC employee said that Pokemon was why Hasbro bought WOTC, for the reasons Dan mentioned. Of course its just the story according to those employees, who knows if there is more to it behind the scenes. As for the market discussion, I don’t think MTG had anywhere near the reaction Pokemon did during the pandemic. Also board games sold like crazy during the pandemic. According to ebay, board games had an even higher percentage of sales than Pokemon cards: ![](https://www.elitefourum.com/uploads/default/original/2X/8/872a953a7cfb50a4e0b1f9ddcc83fe283d611ff9.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![seafoamarticuno](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/seafoamarticuno/32/97280_2.png) [@seafoamarticuno](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/seafoamarticuno)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2022, 2:04am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/20 "2022-02-21T02:04:12Z")
Does anyone know the story how WotC lost the Pokemon license after e-series? Given that they had a couple sets planned that were never printed, I’ve always assumed they weren’t anticipating losing the license. ---
**Author:** ![zorloth](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/zorloth/32/1561_2.png) [@zorloth](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/zorloth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2022, 3:57am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/21 "2022-02-21T03:57:03Z")
> [@seafoamarticuno](#): > > Does anyone know the story how WotC lost the Pokemon license after e-series? Given that they had a couple sets planned that were never printed, I’ve always assumed they weren’t anticipating losing the license. I don’t know the story, but I just did a bit of digging and found an [interesting article from 2003 that outlines the fallout between WotC and Nintendo.](https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2003/10/13/story2.html) The article makes it sounds like Nintendo simply wanted a larger share of the profits, though I’m sure there’s more to the story than that. > [@](#): > > The lawsuit, filed Oct. 1 in U.S. District Court in Seattle, accuses Nintendo affiliate Pokemon USA of abandoning a contract with Wizards, the longtime producer and distributor of Pokemon trading-card games, and using Wizards-patented methods and technology to manufacture the games itself. **The lawsuit also names two former Wizards executives who were hired away by Pokemon USA, accusing them of revealing trade secrets.** [/quote] On a separate note, there’s some other fascinating info in the article that I wasn’t aware of. Apparently, EX Ruby & Sapphire was pretty much entirely developed by (former) WotC employees: > [@](#): > > The lawsuit accuses Pokemon of soliciting and hiring at least **seven former Wizards employees** **to work on the Ruby/Sapphire trading-card game edition,** including Wizards’ former art director, senior graphic designer, business manager, events marketing director and project management director. > [@](#): > > The lawsuit alleges that the former **Wizards employees** had access and were responsible for **“every critical” stage of converting the Japanese version of the Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire edition to English, as well as manufacturing, packaging, marketing and distributing it.** EX Ruby & Sapphire – the _true_ last WotC set? 😵‍💫 ---
**Author:** ![seafoamarticuno](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/seafoamarticuno/32/97280_2.png) [@seafoamarticuno](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/seafoamarticuno)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2022, 11:20am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324/23 "2022-02-21T11:20:39Z")
> [@anon83099482](#): > > > [@seafoamarticuno](#): > > > > Does anyone know the story how WotC lost the Pokemon license after e-series? Given that they had a couple sets planned that were never printed, I’ve always assumed they weren’t anticipating losing the license. > > One of the main reasons was WotC was actively trying to turn older players off Pokemon so they would play Magic. > > For people who’ve never been involved in the players side of the TCG, there are three age divisions which at the time were: 10 and under, 11-14, 15+ > > For the last couple of years that WotC was in charge, they completely removed the 15+ age division from events, replacing it with a professor role, meaning players age 15 and over could judge events or play in smaller events without as much prize support, but would not be able to play in the biggest events. The only WotC ran World Championship in 2002 only officially has two World Champions for this reason (despite Alex Brosseau winning a 15+ event held in the same place at the same time). > > In those days, Magic was aimed at players 15+. > > People do have huge nostalgia over WotC, mainly due to the cards being the ones people remember from childhood, or people being unhappy with how things are run now. It leads to a lot of people saying that they wish WotC has kept control of the TCG, but speak to anyone who was actually playing around that time, WotC was killing the Pokemon TCG. Interesting, didn’t realize that was happening back then. Even today, in the original investor deck posted here, investors are viewing MtG’s potential as even higher than it currently is based on exactly what you’re saying, Pokemon/Yugioh being potential gateways to Magic. A lot of us look back very fondly on the WotC era of Pokemon TCG, with good reason. But you’re right that at the time there were several unpopular decisions, and interest was significantly declining in Pokemon TCG. WotC was responsible for the marketing and was a factor in that decline. [Next page](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/wotc-split-from-hasbro/34324.md?page=2)