Trophy Cards vs. Base Set - Round Table Discussion

General
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@evaner ,

There’s always a price that will move these cards, no matter how high it may be. As you probably know there was a $200k transaction for a trophy publicized on this forum quite recently. So I don’t at all see how it is laughable for people to think money is the barrier. For most of us money is the only barrier that matters. The number may be very high, yes, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a number. Smpratte has multiple trophies for sale right now. Anyone with the money to buy one could do so this very moment. Naturally those prices are far out of reach for most collectors, and any such sale would be record breaking.

Also, just because an established person doesn’t need to sell doesn’t mean they won’t sell. Interests and priorities change. A “rich” collector passionate about the TCG who swears they will never sell might nevertheless sell in 10 years. Not everyone who acquires these cards will treat them like they are sacred artifacts. Some will see them as investment grade collectibles, and they’ll be happy to sell to some other investor/collector for a 5-10x profit.

I’m not trying to minimize the scarcity or challenge in acquiring these. I’m just being realistic. These will always be available if the price is right.

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@squirtle1000 I agree with your argument that every card has a price but I think what @evaner is trying to say is that sometimes, even if you have that record breaking money ready to buy your holy grail, you don’t know where or how to look for one.

I think a good example is a Snap Magikarp which has not been available sine its release 20+ years ago, or a Snap Pikachu, or the 2000-2002 winners cards with the winners faces on them. Not only do you need lots of money, you’d also need to know where to find one, which is the toughest part in acquiring a specific trophy card.

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If i were to seek a trophy card i would go after one of the ones you mentioned, those are top of the peak

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When trophy cards first hit the US there was little interest. I had many that ran through my fingers and very few stuck and those were only because of low demand. Over the years trophy’s picked up some notoriety. They had an interesting back story. They sort of reminded me of the Mona Lisa story. Though it was known as thousands of other paintings were, it wasn’t until its theft and return that it became a “masterpiece”. Whether deserved or not, should it be any less desirable/valuable? I think not.

Who can you all thank for the trophy “masterpieces”. Pretty much Scott and Eddie,

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I just got here and didn’t have time to read all 5 pages of comments. But here’s my hot take.

You must think long term about collectibles. Thinking about the current times can only equate to short sightedness.

Pokemon will still be around in 50 years+ and still have high monetary value as a collectible; this market isn’t going to just die. I’ll make exception for that statement for some kind of apocalyptic scenario.

Nostalgia is the breast milk of any hobby, without it a hobby will be malnourished and die. But with it a hobby will thrive. Pokemon will continue to thrive because of the continued nostalgia fostered in children and adults alike through not only the cards but the shows and video games, merchandise, etc. For example I think Charizard will still remain king even in modern, and kids now will remember gigantimax Charizard from the show on netflix today. And I think Pikachu may not remain the star of every show, but will always be the face of pokemon and the star in a lot of shows to come.

All that said nostalgia is overrated when determining value.

Nostalgia drives a wave of popularity for a time, but is not necessarily a primary factor in determining value, but rather historical context. In 50 years direct nostalgia for WOTC isn’t going to matter; but the existence of the nostalgia within it’s historical significance does resound through the ages. No one is around really who has direct nostalgia for Honus Wagner. But we can appreciate the historical significance and try to remember and feel what it must have been like to live during that era. The same will repeat itself for pokemon. In 50 years young collectors will have an appreciation for what we now experience as childhood nostalgia, they will not have direct nostalgia themselves. (Edit: for WOTC etc., but perhaps for their own pokemon era they may ofc)

There is a lot in this hobby from late 90s Japan that us shortsighted western collectors have ignored for many years because of lack of nostalgia. But I think it’s time we just admit that not collecting all that stuff is pretty short-sighted and the people who did collect it all while it was (and in many cases still is) still affordable have done well to do so.

Nostalgia isn’t everything in collectibles, even though the hobby wouldn’t exist without it.

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@squirtle1000

I don’t disagree but your theory only goes as far as the publicly listed ones. What about those who have surfaced a handful of times since their release or never publicly?
I have been very close to grabbing an Umbreon Play Promo and a Snap Bulbasaur a couple of times each over the last year, both times had record breaking offers on the table that the owners would have taken. In both scenarios the pandemic was the barrier to entry because I couldn’t fly there and partial trades were involved. I could have wired deep five figures completely in the dark to an invidual in the middle who speaks both my language and Japanese, then pray.
I’m not risk averse, quite the opposite in fact but you always have to draw a line you won’t cross.
For most trophies you don’t have the luxury to just grind the money and click buy it now unfortunately.

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Not really, the biggest trophy card sellers were smason108, promo_sen, thecardcollectoruk, brianjapan. These were the first sellers to bring japanese trophies to the western market.

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One thing to keep in mind is that majority of trophy card collectors who said „I‘ll never ever sell“ are not around anymore today and sold everything off😁

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Are you saying everybody has a price?

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I‘m saying, majority of trophy card collectors who claimed that they would never sell actually „had a price“ and left the hobby. That‘s my experience of the past 3-5 years on e4.
People‘s interests change and so does their private and financial situation.

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Take a cohort of 100 collectors who said they would never sell their collection.

Now say in this cohort the collectors all had collections worth less then 20,000 USD. If their collection in one year grew to ten million dollars.

How many collectors do you think would keep their collection?

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  • Avmozz
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I recently bought the $200k no1 trainer 1998 psa 7 that was public here.

Maybe I can give some insight into why I choose to purchase that over base set or such.

I have nostalgia opening base set cards, but I also have nostalgia reading about the trophy cards etc in magazines as a kid as well.

Personally, I don’t like charizard so much as a pokemon, and pikachu is my favorite pokemon. The highest tier of “pikachu” artworks is trophy cards, to my knowledge, and that is the mascot of the franchise, so I think that helps.

I think if you’re going to buy something for such a high price, you want it to stand out and be unique.
The 1st edition base set charizard is often confused with the unlimited, a TON of people seem to think they owned or own one, when they don’t and to me this is a huge reason why the unique artwork on the trophy cards is a huge selling point.

But I think another huge reason why is the fact that somebody had to come first place in a literal tournament in japan in 1998, then somehow part with the card(which I hear many japanese people will not do). This is kinda crazy to think about to me and gives it a much more unique story of how it came about instead of “somebody purchased a box, opened it and sleeved it and got it graded”.

It’s also very hard to purchase a trophy card, I had every single person I offered turn down the offer I made (which btw, was 2x the last known sale price if I recall), and the person who did sell me it only sold me it after several weeks of disussing and negotiating and thinking about if he was willing to or not.
But if I wanted to, I could just buy a charizard at auction.

Sorry if this is badly written, but hope this provides some insight on why I decided to buy it at least :blush:

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I too remember the Jurassic era.

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Makes me feel old, at least in „collecting years“… despite being 28 years young lol

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Glad you responded.

This really sums it up.

You can’t just go out and buy trophy cards in most cases. It takes a lot of negotiating and tracking them down. Of course you could always just pay a huge premium for something that’s “on the market” but even then, it’s still not a sure thing to acquire. If you want a set card, practically any set card. You can obtain them in less than a month. In most cases, day’s. You also bring up a really valid point. Trophy’s are nostalgic for a lot of people, just because those were the cards that you heard or read about, they are the pinnacle. I always preferred Japanese, even back in the late 90s-early 00s when base was so in demand. So I’m sure that’s why my thoughts are this way.

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In my opinion, both types of cards serve different purposes for collectors that expand the breadth of the hobby.

I see the PSA 10 base set cards as a mix of investment and nostalgia. I grew up opening packs around gen 2/3 but the OG base set hits me in the feels for being the set that started it all. It is cool to look at and reflect the time in which it was released.

Trophies, damn they bring out the Indiana Jones in me. The stories behind each one are incredibly unique. You can have trophy cards for attending and winning tournaments, doing special tasks for the Masaki promos, or being a badass artist and designing your own card. Not only that, but the rarity and location where they were released make it damn near impossible to obtain.

Which one would I prefer to have? Base set/Neo Genesis for right now. It scratches the nostalgia itch for me and is a cool piece to have in my overall investment portfolio (please tell my wife it is diversified). My collection is still in its early stages to me and needs work before I can target grail trophy pieces. I also cannot afford most trophies so I am more patient haha.

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My first purchase when I got back into the hobby in 2015/2016 was the 2003-2006 battle roads trophies. Honestly, I purchased them because I wanted something that nobody else had. When I looked at the distribution of them sitting under 200 copies with unique art, my first thought was that these would make great centerpieces for my collection that would set me apart from others. This gratification came but it was very postponed

There have been a few times that Virbank and other groups on Facebook had some “Show Off Your Stuff” type megathreads. Each time, I excitedly post some of my higher end trophy cards with an unspoken sign that says “Notice Me Senpai!”. However, especially with Japanese Trophies, I would say that 99% of the people in those groups had no idea what I just posted and didnt even react with a “that’s cool” or “interesting art”. Meanwhile, all the set cards worth significantly less and more heavily distributed were getting super positive feedback from everyone.

This phenomenon is what fueled the rapid rise of set cards in 2020 whilst a LOT of trophies sat stagnant for a very long time. People simply did not know that these cards existed and/or didn’t care about them. Whilst base set charizard skyrocketed 1000-2000%, trophies barely passed by noticed.

Finally, by the end of Summer, some trophy cards started popping up in PWCC and sold for record shattering prices. All eyes started turning on the trophy cards wondering why they could fetch such high numbers. Fast forward a few more months and all the trophy cards are skyrocketing.

At the end of the day, as with many investment vehicles, the herd mentality is what dictates the prices of items. When you see many charizards transacting hundreds of times per day and the perceived value is there, people want to throw money at it. Since trophies rarely pop up, thy remain largely forgotten or unknown by the masses.

As a side tangent, I’ve often wondered what caused masters scroll to suddenly jump up in price like crazy. It’s art is one of those “you love it or hate it” and the rarity, whilst quite rare, is definitely not the lowest population card of all trophies. Then it dawned on me, this is the very reason that it went up in price. Whilst maintaining it’s trophy card status, it still had enough copies to get transacted on ebay many times giving it huge exposure and price points for its meteoric rise to stardom.

Anyways, I’m rambling at this point with no clear direction for my post so I will end it here. These are just my unfiltered thoughts that I had whilst reading this thread so please do not judge it too harshly!

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Sure they dabbled. I knew and dealt with them all. In fact you left several out that never even left the island. I handled more than any of them which was no big deal at the time.
The reason why trophy’s are where they are today isn’t because of any of them. It’s because of Scott and Eddie.

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Great explanation here! 100% agree with everything