# Thoughts on collectors hoarding high end cards **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Created:** [July 23, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848 "2019-07-23T15:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pikazardcollector](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/pikazardcollector/32/1034_2.png) [@pikazardcollector](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/pikazardcollector)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 1:41am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/23 "2019-07-24T01:41:15Z")
If a collector collects what he or she loves, you are good in my book 😊 ---
**Author:** ![elftan](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/elftan/32/638_2.png) [@elftan](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/elftan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 7:05am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/24 "2019-07-24T07:05:26Z")
Is it hoarding if it’s my bulbasaur collection? Or is the word only allowed to be used for people with multiple copies of high end cards? ---
**Author:** ![budget](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/budget/32/610_2.png) [@budget](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/budget)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 10:35am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/25 "2019-07-24T10:35:46Z")
> [@KingPokemon](#): > > For 50 years I’ve been chasing Steam Siege in the best possible condition. It’s been a rewarding, and at times frustrating, journey. Going into it I knew I could never own all of them but after two decades I only amassed 78% which is a little disappointing. > > Now, do I begrudge anybody in the 90%? Of course not. I totally understand them. They are me. Being jealous or a hater would take the fun out of my hard earned accomplishments. > > When that first prerelease article came out in 1998 and declared you “Gotta sell a kidney for Steam Siege”, I took it to heart. I just didn’t realize it would be impossible;) Truly inspiring words Gary. ---
**Author:** ![RattlePokemon](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/rattlepokemon/32/88913_2.png) [@RattlePokemon](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/RattlePokemon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 10:45am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/26 "2019-07-24T10:45:34Z")
> [@elftan](#): > > Is it hoarding if it’s my bulbasaur collection? Or is the word only allowed to be used for people with multiple copies of high end cards? Won’t you think of all those new trainers starting out in Kanto who now only get to choose between squirtle and charmander? ---
**Author:** ![sinos](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/sinos/32/1170_2.png) [@sinos](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/sinos)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/27 "2019-07-24T20:28:31Z")
Just a thought. The winners of the art academy cards can hold their copies and be the only ones having that specific card. Not many can say that.=) ---
**Author:** ![gottaketchumall](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/gottaketchumall/32/161622_2.png) [@gottaketchumall](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/gottaketchumall)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/28 "2019-07-24T21:18:58Z")
> [@sinos](#): > > Just a thought. The winners of the art academy cards can hold their copies and be the only ones having that specific card. Not many can say that.=) Except for the claimed “bonus” ones sold through collector’s cache recently. ---
**Author:** ![btoise](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/btoise/32/244_2.png) [@btoise](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/btoise)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/29 "2019-07-24T21:30:30Z")
I have some thoughts on this myself. I personally agree with Scott and others on here that sentimental dollars arent worth much in pokemon. So it makes sense that the whales out there would sieze control of the benchmarks that started the hobby. It has become the livelihood for some and securing that would be important for any one of us in their positions. However, from time to time I do see what I believe misinformation put out there regarding these chase cards and what should or should not be sought after. I have seen videos of a well known collector on here saying not to sleep on shadowless for a number of reasons
 the cards cannot be fraudulently \*stamped\* as was possible with 1st edition, speculated that all shadowless cards may have been meant for those stamps, and the unknown/uncertainty of which run was smaller compared to the other. Rarity vs scarcity debate suggests to me that shadowless should take precedent to 1st edition in the future for the simple fact that there arent nearly as many of them in existence. Raichu, clefairy, and the elusive chansey are the best examples of this. Again, this is all speculation on my part and my opinion is an objective one that I’ve put together through use of this forum and YouTube viewings. People that say 1st edition will always stay ahead of shadowless would be the whales who already have the most amount of resources tied into these cards. It wouldn’t make any sense for them to argue against this point ultimately hurting their bottom line after years of investment. So my take is that if we don’t see an even bigger rise in price when comparing shadowless to 1st base, then that would be because those in the hobby are steering their resources elsewhere
 or purchasing these cards low and not advertising these beautiful examples of what is known to be the start of the hobby. đŸ•¶ \*this is not to be a controversial post or upset some in the hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Frosty.Puppy](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/frosty.puppy/32/234614_2.png) [@Frosty.Puppy](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/Frosty.Puppy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/30 "2019-07-24T21:56:24Z")
> [@btoise](#): > > 
 well known collector on here saying not to sleep on shadowless for a number of reasons
 the cards cannot be fraudulently \*stamped\* as was possible with 1st edition, speculated that all shadowless cards may have been meant for those stamps, and the unknown/uncertainty of which run was smaller compared to the other. Rarity vs scarcity debate suggests to me that shadowless should take precedent to 1st edition in the future for the simple fact that there arent nearly as many of them in existence. Raichu, clefairy, and the elusive chansey are the best examples of this 
 People that say 1st edition will always stay ahead of shadowless would be the whales who already have the most amount of resources tied into these cards. It wouldn’t make any sense for them to argue against this point ultimately hurting their bottom line after years of investment. So my take is that if we don’t see an even bigger rise in price when comparing shadowless to 1st base, then that would be because those in the hobby are steering their resources elsewhere
 or purchasing these cards low and not advertising these beautiful examples of what is known to be the start of the hobby
 ![](https://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o763/Kai-Kasumi/Private/Screen%20Shot%202019-07-24%20at%2022.51.00_zpsix5stxuq.png) You’re literally arguing against your own words lol ---
**Author:** ![pfm](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/pfm/32/254328_2.png) [@pfm](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/pfm)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/31 "2019-07-24T21:59:51Z")
> [@btoise](#): > > Rarity vs scarcity debate suggests to me that shadowless should take precedent to 1st edition in the future for the simple fact that there arent nearly as many of them in existence. Raichu, clefairy, and the elusive chansey are the best examples of this. Again, this is all speculation on my part and my opinion is an objective one that I’ve put together through use of this forum and YouTube viewings. People that say 1st edition will always stay ahead of shadowless would be the whales who already have the most amount of resources tied into these cards. It wouldn’t make any sense for them to argue against this point ultimately hurting their bottom line after years of investment. So my take is that if we don’t see an even bigger rise in price when comparing shadowless to 1st base, then that would be because those in the hobby are steering their resources elsewhere
 or purchasing these cards low and not advertising these beautiful examples of what is known to be the start of the hobby. đŸ•¶ > \*this is not to be a controversial post or upset some in the hobby. It’s supply _and demand_1st edition will always be top simply because the demand is so much greater than shadowless. You might be able to point to instances where one shadowless PSA 10 sold more than a first edition copy but that is the exception, not the norm. ---
**Author:** ![btoise](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/btoise/32/244_2.png) [@btoise](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/btoise)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/32 "2019-07-24T22:10:42Z")
> [@Frosty.Puppy](#): > > > [@btoise](#): > > > > 
 well known collector on here saying not to sleep on shadowless for a number of reasons
 the cards cannot be fraudulently \*stamped\* as was possible with 1st edition, speculated that all shadowless cards may have been meant for those stamps, and the unknown/uncertainty of which run was smaller compared to the other. Rarity vs scarcity debate suggests to me that shadowless should take precedent to 1st edition in the future for the simple fact that there arent nearly as many of them in existence. Raichu, clefairy, and the elusive chansey are the best examples of this 
 People that say 1st edition will always stay ahead of shadowless would be the whales who already have the most amount of resources tied into these cards. It wouldn’t make any sense for them to argue against this point ultimately hurting their bottom line after years of investment. So my take is that if we don’t see an even bigger rise in price when comparing shadowless to 1st base, then that would be because those in the hobby are steering their resources elsewhere
 or purchasing these cards low and not advertising these beautiful examples of what is known to be the start of the hobby
 > > ![](https://efour.b-cdn.net/uploads/default/original/3X/5/9/59f5f6e4f3605b8adb37b11c110110979b784929.png) > > You’re literally arguing against your own words lol Pulling up my old texts from long ago I like it. That being said opinions can change, and the more i researched and paid attention to what those in the forum say
 and do not say
 this is my new, evolved opinion on the matter. And those exceptions are not just for the cards I mentioned, but for rather all of them. Look at the registry as defense exhibit A pls. Edit: And supply and demand IS my argument here. Edit 2: supply anyway, and demand being the basis for the article and the question that I put forth. My reasons for this perspective are clear and I tried to put into words that would not offend some in the hobby
 maybe some who put out weekly videos say every Tuesday.. or is it Wednesday? đŸ€” I forget but I do value the experiences they bring to the hobby no question. Hope this helps to sum up my current views toward this matter. Edit 3: and this is the most important point that I do not see EVER brought up here. Base set 1st edition and base set unlimited (now come to be known as shadowless thanks to Gary) came out on the exact, same day. This was witnessed by people in these markets who were found on the west coast (like myself) and supposedly the east coast (New York as example, and I could be wrong but remember reading that somewhere). But this is something that I lived through and witnessed first hand. ---
**Author:** ![smpratte](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/smpratte/32/79511_2.png) [@smpratte](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/smpratte)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 10:34pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/33 "2019-07-24T22:34:08Z")
@btoise How many Shadowless cards do you own? ---
**Author:** ![btoise](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/btoise/32/244_2.png) [@btoise](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/btoise)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 10:41pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/34 "2019-07-24T22:41:49Z")
> [@smpratte](#): > > @btoise How many Shadowless cards do you own? Not enough, Scott. How about yourself, kind sir? Maybe this can be an updated topic for you to cover on your channel. Your Boba Fett video was very well done btw. A great collectible indeed. Edit for sake of transparency: a couple of booster boxes worth in mint, untouched, and climate controlled cards. Commons, uncommons, rares, and holos. Edit 2: no charizard. I am clearly not a whale with no intentions of disturbing the current ecosystem. ---
**Author:** ![smpratte](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/smpratte/32/79511_2.png) [@smpratte](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/smpratte)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 11:05pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/35 "2019-07-24T23:05:02Z")
@btoise, Glad you like the Boba Fett video! I’ve mentioned this idea before, and guess it could be its own video topic. In short no one is missing anything on Shadowless. There was a bubble awhile back, to the point where people were saying shadowless will outpace 1st Ed Base because of scarcity
 And its gone! No set in Pokemon will have more demand, history and market data than 1st Edition Base. “1st Edition” is a ubiquitous term. “Shadowless” is a collector specific term. The average Joe will understand “1st Edition”. Also 1st Edition was first. Lastly, the pop report will never be accurate for Shadowless. The Shadowless distinction wasn’t made until later down the road. Where 1st Ed Base was consistently submitting from its release in 1999, creating the most comprehensive pop report in Pokemon. ---
**Author:** ![btoise](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/btoise/32/244_2.png) [@btoise](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/btoise)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/36 "2019-07-24T23:09:26Z")
> [@smpratte](#): > > @btoise, Glad you like the Boba Fett video! > > I’ve mentioned this idea before, and guess it could be its own video topic. In short no one is missing anything on Shadowless. There was a bubble awhile back, to the point where people were saying shadowless will outpace 1st Ed Base because of scarcity
 And its gone! > > No set in Pokemon will have more demand, history and market data than 1st Edition Base. “1st Edition” is a ubiquitous term. “Shadowless” is a collector specific term. The average Joe will understand “1st Edition”. Also 1st Edition was first. > > Lastly, the pop report will never be accurate for Shadowless. The Shadowless distinction wasn’t made until later down the road. Where 1st Ed Base was consistently submitting from its release in 1999, creating the most comprehensive pop report in Pokemon. Scott, the ‘average Joe’ isnt buying these high end cards. People like you are. And that’s the point. 3 words you have instilled in all of us
 “rarer, minter, better”. The OP was questioning who has these chase cards and why. And I used my knowledge to form an opinion that, although may be contrary to your benefit, is an honest take on what those who own the market want us to see. Edit 1: couple things, first being I waited for someone to bring up this point and didnt expect it to be you to be honest. Shadowless designation. I believe Gary said he had PSA do this between 2007-10 which I do not believe ppl were submitting the kind of volume for this set at that time. I do not ever see shadowless holos incorrectly identified in PSA cases on Ebay. Ever. They are such a rarity I now question their existence. The shadowless run could very well be smaller than 1st edition as a result. 2nd, 1st edition did NOT come first. 1st edition and unlimited shadowless were delivered to stores on opening day. Scott
 I witnessed this firsthand. This is true. Regardless of speculation at this point. Same card, same artwork, no chances for fraud, and far scarcer for a card that was released on the same day. Some have even said that wotc had their 1st ed quota incorrect and sent back more cards for the stamp from the INITIAL print run. A lot of supporters on this forum, who, and I could be speculating here, originated from the ex Nintendo era, would have no clue as to the real beginning of what they covet. Man I respect your opinion, and I recognize this is a business to you. This should honestly become a video for you to discuss. I can tell that people who are in their 20s who follow you dont know enough of the actual beginnings of the hobby. Again, I can’t prove that unlimited shadowless was sold on day 1 but I was there. Gary was there. Scott, we’re in the same age group and you were too. I would like Gary to come out and verify some of this as I believe he was a seller with a storefront during the initial run. Edit 2: Also, anything you put out is worth watching, however, I would rather listen to evolving or new perspectives on wotc sets that keep the collector coming back for more. It’s why I started watching your channel. ---
**Author:** ![KingPokemon](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/kingpokemon/32/283_2.png) [@KingPokemon](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/KingPokemon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 11:37pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/37 "2019-07-24T23:37:05Z")
> [@budget](#): > > > [@KingPokemon](#): > > > > For 50 years I’ve been chasing Steam Siege in the best possible condition. It’s been a rewarding, and at times frustrating, journey. Going into it I knew I could never own all of them but after two decades I only amassed 78% which is a little disappointing. > > > > Now, do I begrudge anybody in the 90%? Of course not. I totally understand them. They are me. Being jealous or a hater would take the fun out of my hard earned accomplishments. > > > > When that first prerelease article came out in 1998 and declared you “Gotta sell a kidney for Steam Siege”, I took it to heart. I just didn’t realize it would be impossible;) > > Truly inspiring words Gary. > By the way, it is truly amazing how good you look in your recent videos. Many would point to the likes of Brad Pitt or Leonardo DiCaprio as today’s most handsome leading men but, there’s a growing number of us who feel you’ve risen above them all and deserve the title, “Worlds most attractive man”. Thanks for the kind words but I don’t think I’m there
yet. ---
**Author:** ![ccrntrade](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/ccrntrade/32/500_2.png) [@ccrntrade](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/ccrntrade)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/38 "2019-07-24T23:38:01Z")
If Shadowless consistently reached 1st edition prices the POP report would probably be closer. ---
**Author:** ![nuttun](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/nuttun/32/565_2.png) [@nuttun](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/nuttun)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/39 "2019-07-24T23:43:53Z")
> [@btoise](#): > > > [@smpratte](#): > > > > Scott, the ‘average Joe’ isnt buying these high end cards. People like you are. And that’s the point. 3 words you have instilled in all of us
 “rarer, minter, better”. The OP was questioning who has these chase cards and why. And I used my knowledge to form an opinion that, although may be contrary to your benefit, is an honest take on what those who own the market want us to see. The “average joe” is literally us. I’m not some crazy card entrepreneur that is out to make a living off my cards, I’m literally in this hobby to collect and enjoy the cards history. Most of us, like 99% probably, are into collecting as a side-gig, and not to live off the cards to retire. We all have our own full time jobs and use the disposable income to buy the cards. Obviously though, a majority also does not want to buy a card and see it tank in price later, so it makes sense that theres speculation and prediction on the prices of cards. People like Scott or Gary are not trying to influence people on what to buy in my opinion, but more so that they have enough experience to provide a reasonable explanation to the market. It is also because of that, along with their passion in collecting, that they are willing to put significantly more money into buying cards and willing to get more if they think the price is worth it. An easy example of this is that if there are 5 base 1st edition PSA 10 charizards out in the wild for 10k each, I’m sure most of us would take out a loan to buy 1 (if not all), including myself because we all know what the market is with that card. Yes, I agree Scott has the ability to influence some collectors decisions and help them in making purchases. But on the other hand, we’re not stupid either. If any seasoned collector makes an outrageous claim without proper backing, we’re not sheep; we will call them out about it. The difference is Scott, Gary, basically any seasoned collector in the community never abused their seniority to make a quick buck on the community. Also, as a collector that is basically not invested at all into the base sets (probably less than 5% of my collection is base), I feel like you missed an important point with your supply and demand argument. Yes, you may be correct with supply, but you are incorrect with the demand. Shadowless is niche and hypothetically if the price of a 1st edition base charizard becomes the same price as the shadowless one, regardless of the supply out there, I personally would choose the 1st edition base instead. I even recall when I literally started collecting pokemon cards, I had to research what shadowless was, and I literally lumped unlimited with shadowless together, with shadowless being an “alternative” if I really can’t afford the 1st edition base set cards. Now, even though I know shadowless are pretty rare, I still prefer 1st edition base because it’s 1st edition. Anyone who collects cards know what 1st edition means. ---
**Author:** ![btoise](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/btoise/32/244_2.png) [@btoise](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/btoise)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/40 "2019-07-24T23:58:24Z")
> [@nuttun](#): > > > [@btoise](#): > > > > Scott, the ‘average Joe’ isnt buying these high end cards. People like you are. And that’s the point. 3 words you have instilled in all of us
 “rarer, minter, better”. The OP was questioning who has these chase cards and why. And I used my knowledge to form an opinion that, although may be contrary to your benefit, is an honest take on what those who own the market want us to see. > > The “average joe” is literally us. I’m not some crazy card entrepreneur that is out to make a living off my cards, I’m literally in this hobby to collect and enjoy the cards history. Most of us, like 99% probably, are into collecting as a side-gig, and not to live off the cards to retire. We all have our own full time jobs and use the disposable income to buy the cards. Obviously though, a majority also does not want to buy a card and see it tank in price later, so it makes sense that theres speculation and prediction on the prices of cards. People like Scott or Gary are not trying to influence people on what to buy in my opinion, but more so that they have enough experience to provide a reasonable explanation to the market. It is also because of that, along with their passion in collecting, that they are willing to put significantly more money into buying cards and willing to get more if they think the price is worth it. An easy example of this is that if there are 5 base 1st edition PSA 10 charizards out in the wild for 10k each, I’m sure most of us would take out a loan to buy 1 (if not all), including myself because we all know what the market is with that card. > > Yes, I agree Scott has the ability to influence some collectors decisions and help them in making purchases. But on the other hand, we’re not stupid either. If any seasoned collector makes an outrageous claim without proper backing, we’re not sheep; we will call them out about it. The difference is Scott, Gary, Charlie, basically any seasoned collector in the community never abused their seniority to make a quick buck on the community. > > Also, as a collector that is basically not invested at all into the base sets (probably less than 5% of my collection is base), I feel like you missed an important point with your supply and demand argument. Yes, you may be correct with supply, but you are incorrect with the demand. Shadowless is niche and hypothetically if the price of a 1st edition base charizard becomes the same price as the shadowless one, regardless of the supply out there, I personally would choose the 1st edition base instead. I even recall when I literally started collecting pokemon cards, I had to research what shadowless was, and I literally lumped unlimited with shadowless together, with shadowless being an “alternative” if I really can’t afford the 1st edition base set cards. Now, even though I know shadowless are pretty rare, I still prefer 1st edition base because it’s 1st edition. Anyone who collects cards know what 1st edition means. You said a lot here, and my words are being skewed as a result. I like Scott, and Gary is a top tier individual overall. I’m not saying anything that one or the other does it hurt other people. Let’s get that clear. They have a forum, however. Speculation is anybody’s right to opinion but that doesn’t mean I’m saying they’re trying to hurt the public or their supporters. Let’s be clear about that. Now. People will take out 10k loans to buy cards? Dont make that statement when there are people in their 20s who follow these guys and what they say as scripture. That isnt fair. That could be and should be put toward a mortgage. No. In fact even if they have mortgages they have Bills to pay and that is the point. No, you personally, would not be taking out a mortgage to buy a psa10 1st ed charizard if it were available because it is available on Ebay right now. So again, dont skew, or corrupt, what is that I am saying. The OP raised a very valid point. The end result is that people here who dont yet have a 1st edition shadowless charizard will almost certainly never have one because we have transcended above the reasonable expectation of what one can lay for it. To say that you would take out a loan to purchase this card for 10k, 20k, or even 40k if you could even secure a loan for such a thing, is incredibly disrespectful to the ‘general public’ and what any community, especially a forum on e4, would need to survive. This is their business and before you start throwing out wild accusations and mincing words, you should be more respectful regarding the opinions of others. Scott, i encourage you to do a video on this to dispel this kind of reaction to a very valid evaluation. ---
**Author:** ![btoise](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/btoise/32/244_2.png) [@btoise](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/btoise)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 12:01am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/41 "2019-07-25T00:01:43Z")
> [@ccrntrade](#): > > If Shadowless consistently reached 1st edition prices the POP report would probably be closer. Not even close. Twenty years has passed. Ask smpratte, days of mint examples of copies this old are a thing of the past. They are indeed rarer. It is time for the community to acknowledge this. ---
**Author:** ![nuttun](https://efour.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/www.elitefourum.com/nuttun/32/565_2.png) [@nuttun](https://www.elitefourum.com/u/nuttun)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848/42 "2019-07-25T00:20:20Z")
> [@btoise](#): > > > [@nuttun](#): > > > > You said a lot here, and my words are being skewed as a result. I like Scott, and Gary is a top tier individual overall. I’m not saying anything that one or the other does it hurt other people. Let’s get that clear. They have a forum, however. Speculation is anybody’s right to opinion but that doesn’t mean I’m saying they’re trying to hurt the public or their supporters. Let’s be clear about that. Now. People will take out 10k loans to buy cards? Dont make that statement when there are people in their 20s who follow these guys and what they say as scripture. That isnt fair. That could be and should be put toward a mortgage. No. In fact even if they have mortgages they have Bills to pay and that is the point. No, you personally, would not be taking out a mortgage to buy a psa10 1st ed charizard if it were available because it is available on Ebay right now. So again, dont skew, or corrupt, what is that I am saying. The OP raised a very valid point. The end result is that people here who dont yet have a 1st edition shadowless charizard will almost certainly never have one because we have transcended above the reasonable expectation of what one can lay for it. To say that you would take out a loan to purchase this card for 10k, 20k, or even 40k if you could even secure a loan for such a thing, is incredibly disrespectful to the ‘general public’ and what any community, especially a forum on e4, would need to survive. This is their business and before you start throwing out wild accusations and mincing words, you should be more respectful regarding the opinions of others. Scott, i encourage you to do a video on this to dispel this kind of reaction to a very valid evaluation. You’re the one who is skewing my argument. I did not even mention that you do not like Scott and Gary, how on earth did you get that from what I just said? Neither did I say they are trying to hurt the public or supporters; I’m saying the public can be influenced by their experience, but we’re not stupid and we don’t follow their opinions like sheep. People WILL call them out if they disagree with their opinion, exactly like you are doing, which is completely fine. Onto the 10k loan thing. I can EXACTLY make that statement because that’s what I would literally do. I AM in my 20s and while I do take Scotts opinion and Garys, I DO NOT follow their advice if I disagree with them. Hence why I do NOT buy base set because I simply do not like that style of collecting. Also, you do NOT need a mortgage for a 10k loan, you can literally pay that off with a credit card or a line of credit, and you got to be kidding me right? A PSA 10 1st edition base charizard can be EASILY sold for 20k at the moment (isn’t it at like 30k now), who on earth would not take the chance on grabbing one at a low price? I literally use that as an example because it’s basically arbitrage at this point and even if the price tanks shockingly, you’re owning a masterpiece of a card in the entire hobby, and you know that many collectors literally only collect charizard would ALWAYS be interested in buying one. I’m NOT telling you to take out a loan for a charizard for 40k because at that point, you’re buying above your means and if you cannot afford it, DON’T BUY IT. But lets say you take a risk and get a charizard PSA 10 1st base at 10k in the present moment I am writing this, and you figured out you really cannot afford the card; you can literally sell it immediately for essentially a 100% return. You literally twisted the shit out of my own personal argument and you even ignored the big point where I said that shadowless is simply less interesting to the general consensus and therefore has less demand, and thereby lower prices. Wild accusations? I kept saying it’s my own personal opinion and how I view it personally. You’re the one who is making WILD SPECULATIONS by assuming that people follow Gary and Scotts words as “scripture” as you say it and frankly, I feel like you just want to bait Scott to make a video for some damn reason because every goddamn post you wrote ends with you asking Scott to make a video about it. [Previous page](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848.md?page=1) [Next page](https://www.elitefourum.com/t/thoughts-on-collectors-hoarding-high-end-cards/23848.md?page=3)