Rarity of Topsun, Carddass and No Rarity Base Set

[pichufan]

@rainbow

Bandai and Topsun made their own products. They entered licencing agreements and their products carried their branding proclaiming that it was made by them. Media Factory entered agreements and printed cards too but without the recognition on the cards themselves. Media Factory also produced other products, including other anime/manga and were a broad publishing company that wasn’t established specifically for pokemon. So I don’t get where this purist mentality is coming from. They hardly had to work any harder than the other two in terms of designs as the early set cards from everyone were quite basic. And as you know, Bandai also produced many other pokemon toy lines as well.

I also think it is important to remember that Bandai had an important role in anchoring and facilitationg the reach of pokemon and its products, not only through card production stages (the ability to produce products), but more importantly it had an effective distribution system in place.

This played a large part in pokemon products becoming ubiquitous across Japan as it was able to distribute products across its networks of vending machines. That reach helped establish pokemons branding and was able to feed the demand at the time, facilitating the franchises growth. Now while Topsun came to the party later and didn’t contribute the same legacy we saw (and continue to see) through Bandai’s Carddass sets (not just the first 4 parts either, boo to those trying to belittle the others), what it boils down to is that neither Bandai’s Carddass nor Topsun are attempting to be TCG. They are merely trading cards. So I still disagree with you that either of them is generic, and this is fine. My view will likely not change. You can stick to your view too.

As I said, I used the word generic because they are very similar to cards from other franchises both companies had printed before they agreed a deal with Pokémon. I’m not saying either set had no influence on Pokémon as a brand - I think you’re reading too much into what I’ve said - I’m simply saying that the cards were generic: they were generic Bandai cards and they were generic Topsun cards. Both Bandai and Topsun already had the capability to print such cards and they already had the supply lines, making them perfect companies for Pokémon to affiliate themselves with.

I’m not here trying to downplay their significance, I came here to answer the question of are these cards rare? and, as I’ve now said multiple times, the answer is no. If you believe they are rare cards, fantastic, I’d love to hear why, but you seem to be nit-picking the points which do not pertain to their rarity.

@chrispy

Why do you suppose a 1st ed base Shining Charizard goes for $30,000+ when it had a significantly later print date than say, a 1st ed dark charizard that only goes for $6,000-$9,000?

That was the first shiny Charizard card.

Firsts tend to give a value boost, that’s why unlimited cards are almost always less valuable than their 1st edition counterparts - even on the majority of sets where unlimited is rarer. The Topsun Charizard is believed by a lot of people to be the first Charizard card ever printed.

---

To both of you: remember that value and rarity do not go hand in hand. I’m not saying that these are not valuable cards - if I didn’t believe that I wouldn’t have a whole stack of them with PSA right now - I’m saying that they aren’t rare cards. The reason they have started to appear to be rare cards is because there has been a frenzy to buy them all, however that trend appears to have died down now.

[chrispy]

@pichufan

@chrispy

Why do you suppose a 1st ed base Shining Charizard goes for $30,000+ when it had a significantly later print date than say, a 1st ed dark charizard that only goes for $6,000-$9,000?

That was the first shiny Charizard card.

Firsts tend to give a value boost, that’s why unlimited cards are almost always less valuable than their 1st edition counterparts - even on the majority of sets where unlimited is rarer. The Topsun Charizard is believed by a lot of people to be the first Charizard card ever printed.

---

To both of you: remember that value and rarity do not go hand in hand. I’m not saying that these are not valuable cards - if I didn’t believe that I wouldn’t have a whole stack of them with PSA right now - I’m saying that they aren’t rare cards. The reason they have started to appear to be rare cards is because there has been a frenzy to buy them all, however that trend appears to have died down now.

Everything was a “first” back then. You could say the other was the “first” dark Charizard… I thought we were going by the argument that it being viewed as printed earlier was why it was valued more. In my opinion, the reason why a topsun charizard holds a record, highest-price sale of a charizard, even over 1st edition base, has more to do with its rarity in condition than some speculative semantic about it’s date of release. I even linked you to the previous owner who said as much before having his record sale (I’m sure whoever bought it likely watched his videos and read what he had to say about it before dropping that kind of money). Maybe we should tag Jeremy to weigh in? Perhaps he knows who purchased and they can settle this on why it was purchased. Was it because they were bamboozled into thinking it was printed in 1995? OR was it because only 1, now 2 exist in a psa 10. Seems easy enough to resolve…

[kingboo64]

@chrispy

@pichufan

That was the first shiny Charizard card.

Firsts tend to give a value boost, that’s why unlimited cards are almost always less valuable than their 1st edition counterparts - even on the majority of sets where unlimited is rarer. The Topsun Charizard is believed by a lot of people to be the first Charizard card ever printed.

---

To both of you: remember that value and rarity do not go hand in hand. I’m not saying that these are not valuable cards - if I didn’t believe that I wouldn’t have a whole stack of them with PSA right now - I’m saying that they aren’t rare cards. The reason they have started to appear to be rare cards is because there has been a frenzy to buy them all, however that trend appears to have died down now.

Everything was a “first” back then. You could say the other was the “first” dark Charizard… I thought we were going by the argument that it being viewed as printed earlier was why it was valued more. In my opinion, the reason why a topsun charizard holds a record, highest-price sale of a charizard, even over 1st edition base, has more to do with its rarity in condition than some speculative semantic about it’s date of release. I even linked you to the previous owner who said as much before having his record sale (I’m sure whoever bought it likely watched his videos and read what he had to say about it before dropping that kind of money). Maybe we should tag Jeremy to weigh in? Perhaps he knows who purchased and they can settle this on why it was purchased. Was it because they were bamboozled into thinking it was printed in 1995? OR was it because only 1, now 2 exist in a psa 10. Seems easy enough to resolve…

Neo destiny 1st had a far lower print run than rocket, and is harder to pull. It also has a much lower pop, less than half the 10 and 1/8 of the 9

[chrispy]

@kingboo64

@chrispy

Everything was a “first” back then. You could say the other was the “first” dark Charizard… I thought we were going by the argument that it being viewed as printed earlier was why it was valued more. In my opinion, the reason why a topsun charizard holds a record, highest-price sale of a charizard, even over 1st edition base, has more to do with its rarity in condition than some speculative semantic about it’s date of release. I even linked you to the previous owner who said as much before having his record sale (I’m sure whoever bought it likely watched his videos and read what he had to say about it before dropping that kind of money). Maybe we should tag Jeremy to weigh in? Perhaps he knows who purchased and they can settle this on why it was purchased. Was it because they were bamboozled into thinking it was printed in 1995? OR was it because only 1, now 2 exist in a psa 10. Seems easy enough to resolve…

Neo destiny 1st had a far lower print run than rocket, and is harder to pull. It also has a much lower pop, less than half the 10 and 1/8 of the 9

You’re kind of segueing into my point; all of this is speculative and subjective. There are topsun charizards that command a very high premium right up there with 1st edition base shadowless. For whatever reason, some people have a problem with this and are looking for reasons why people must have been bamboozled into buying into them. I personally think that’s silly. You can always come up with a reasoning for value and different people value things differently. For some, it’s when it was printed, for others it’s how rare the pullrate is or printrun, for others it’s pop report in a low grade and so forth. I just don’t buy into topsun/cardass being priced the way they are over some elaborate conspiracy that PSA has pulled the wool over collectors eyes and once they find out they were printed like… 2 years later, suddenly there will be less demand or some sort of price drop. That’s some flying saucer level conspiracy shit in my opinion.

[kingboo64]

@chrispy

@kingboo64

Neo destiny 1st had a far lower print run than rocket, and is harder to pull. It also has a much lower pop, less than half the 10 and 1/8 of the 9

You’re kind of segueing into my point; all of this is speculative and subjective. There are topsun charizards that command a very high premium right up there with 1st edition base shadowless. For whatever reason, some people have a problem with this and are looking for reasons why people must have been bamboozled into buying into them. I personally think that’s silly. You can always come up with a reasoning for value and different people value things differently. For some, it’s when it was printed, for others it’s how rare the pullrate is or printrun, for others it’s pop report in a low grade and so forth. I just don’t buy into topsun/cardass being priced the way they are over some elaborate conspiracy that PSA has pulled the wool over collectors eyes and once they find out they were printed like… 2 years later, suddenly there will be less demand or some sort of price drop. That’s some flying saucer level conspiracy shit in my opinion.

Yeah I doubt that’s gonna happen. My comment was solely about the difference between dark and shining zord. If it’s pop 2 and there aren’t mint copies, and it’s a zord, it’s gonna sell for a lot.

[rainbow]

@pichufan

As I said, I used the word generic because they are very similar to cards from other franchises both companies had printed before they agreed a deal with Pokémon.

It’s a branding strategy. Funko pops do the same thing. It’s to make them recognisable and promote cross collecting. It only happened for select sets.

I’m not saying either set had no influence on Pokémon as a brand - I think you’re reading too much into what I’ve said - I’m simply saying that the cards were generic: they were generic Bandai cards and they were generic Topsun cards. Both Bandai and Topsun already had the capability to print such cards and they already had the supply lines, making them perfect companies for Pokémon to affiliate themselves with.

**I don’t think I am reading into it. We both disagree on using the word Generic. **Like I said, that’s fine.****I’m not here trying to downplay their significance, I came here to answer the question of are these cards rare? and, as I’ve now said multiple times, the answer is no. If you believe they are rare cards, fantastic, I’d love to hear why, but you seem to be nit-picking the points which do not pertain to their rarity.

I’ve never said they were rare cards. In fact I’ve already addressed and expressed my views to OP that they should be cautious because no-one knows where the pops for most cards will ultimately settle. But I will add that it is wise to remember that a lack of rarity at the time doesn’t automatically equate to an abundance now, either.

[shizzlemetimbers]

@chrisbalestra, You don’t think it is a problem that the majority of people falsely believe that Topsun is from 1995? And do you truly think that that has no affect on their price? If I saw cards listed as 1995 I would assume that they are worth more than cards issued later. If I purchased cards thinking they were from 1995 and later found out that they were actually from 1997 I would be disappointed.

[chrispy]

@shizzlemetimbers

@chrisbalestra , You don’t think it is a problem that the majority of people falsely believe that Topsun is from 1995? And do you truly think that that has no affect on their price? If I saw cards listed as 1995 I would assume that they are worth more than cards issued later. If I purchased cards thinking they were from 1995 and later found out that they were actually from 1997 I would be disappointed.

Shizzle yes, I truly don’t believe it affects their price. The claims that the “majority of people believe it’s a 1995” card isn’t even something you can prove, and it’s certainly less likely that the collectors spending thousands, or HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars on the cards aren’t aware of their origins and print dates. Do you have a record of someone buying into the card believing it was printed earlier, only to be disappointed otherwise? I’d love to meet/talk to this person, let alone many of these people.

[rainbow]

@shizzlemetimbers

The whole appeal of Topsun was that people thought they were the first Pokemon ‘card’ released and this was supported by PSA with the 1995 label. There is nothing special about Topsun when you remove their 1995 designation at least to the point where they outsell no rarity

I don’t have a problem with the price of Topsun cards. If people want to pay these prices for them and are aware of their true history then that’s perfect, and I think you would agree.

I think the main problem is with the collectors in denial about the truth. There are many whom remain ignorant to the facts and claim that nobody knows for certain when that is simply not true anymore. A lot of youtubers continue to propel the myth and throw up smoke and mirrors, like it is some unsolved mystery.

If the main feature of these cards isn’t their 1st card status then why is there so much resistance to the new information?

[shizzlemetimbers]

@rainbowgx, As long as people understand that they are from 1997 I am happy. The only issue is that you have to dig deep here on E4 to find the information. There’s no way everyone who buys a Topsun card will read our posts and therefore the myth will probably continue sadly…

[chrispy]

I’m certain there are plenty of charizard collectors like myself (and collectors in general I’d imagine) that own topsun and couldn’t give a fig about the print date being 1997 vs 1995. Like I said already, if you find a high end collector who spent a ton of money on a topsun charizard (or other card in the set) and is now disappointed; please point them out to me.

[chrispy]

/bump. Point me to one, let alone “many” or a “majority” that would constitute an argument in this regard.

[primordialaa]

I have spent a lot of money on topsun cards… my only regret is that I didn’t spend more (I’m looking at you ebirdman and that PSA 10 set!!)

[gengaranimal]

My Topsun Zard is the only slabbed Charizard I own as I am not a Charizard collector. However, the Topsun “generic” yet thoroughly iconic and early art—with its primitive borders and fragile design that some say is downright ugly and should remain bereft of any serious collecting credibility—is exactly what attracts me to it. Base set may have the most sentiment tied to it, but the Topsun image is the one Charizard art I would choose if I had to pick just one—even moreso than Base set or the Game Boy promo art. Subjectively, that’s my draw to it. “Early art” is part of the draw for sure (to me), but I don’t care if it’s 1995 or 1997. It’s early and I look at it and say, “That’s what Charizard looks like.” I fully admit I may be the minority on that, and not even increasing popularity or the annoyance of hype turns me away from my appreciation of this ugly a$$ card.