It’s ok to be frustrated and it’s ok to support whomever you want. My point is that there’s a difference from being grateful that a platform beyond CGC is being proactive and helping with reimbursements …from outright demanding it. That is NOT the norm nor should it be expected. Auction houses do not typically endure the burden of financial responsibility/liability when fraud is established on items officially guaranteed/backed by an authenticator. Therefore claiming they are being “shady”, or “need to be held accountable” or any other disparaging remarks against them is not a fair statement.
To keep to one post but answer 3 people,
@jayce87 Yes, I honestly believe the people who are losing the most will be those who purchased directly, raw, and were not yet able to get their cards authenticated. They have low recourse to reimbursement beyond getting law enforcement involved, internationally, to hold the culprits accountable. That’s much harder than trying to get a reimbursement from an authenticator with a financial guarantee.
I completely understand your point of view but there’s just no way those buyers who purchased the raw, ungraded copies had any other expectation BUT those cards ending up in CGC slabs…none. The level of naivete for there to be any other conclusion for those raw cards is immeasurable. And I say that with some understanding that some of the folks involved are extremely respected members of the community.
That said - PFM blowing this thing wide open actually resulted in those countless raw + ungraded copies costing CGC grading fees did it not (as ridiculous as this sounds)? How would actual forgeries being revealed post-grading to actually be forgeries matter as opposed to if they were revealed to be forgeries immediately prior?
The effective value of those cards raw was always zero, so the idea that “what if they had just gotten into CGC slabs a day before PFM released his findings” is crazy and is the crux of this whole situation.
There’s a big delta b:w someone buying a raw card yet to be authenticated/graded than someone buying a card that has been authenticated/graded. The buyer who bought raw assumed all the risk of the card(s) not being authentic, where as the buyer who bought CGC authenticated card(s) bought with the notion that the card is authentic and would default to CGC’s guarantee. There’s a very big distinction b:w the two regardless if the person buying raw had the intention to send to CGC or not.
And again - I respectfully find it hard to believe that anyone would have assumed a high level of risk buying these cards raw had CGC not authenticated that initial first few in 2023. There was a level of confidence in CGC authenticating those first few to the point that the very buyers of these raw cards continually referenced CGC’s authenticating of these cards as a major factor in that decision (if memory serves me correct).
There is a lag time between cards being purchased directly from these sources, and them being handed over to CGC for authentication. The cards do not teleport to CGC and immediately get slabbed. If you think there weren’t cards purchased that never got slabbed yet (and now never will), then you are (respectfully) being naive.
Yes, while they may have been influenced by CGC authentication of separate cards - nonetheless, the cards they purchased weren’t exactly the same ones and purchased raw, regardless of the confidence invoked from previous gradings - fact remains, they still assume all the risk of buying a raw card like any other card.
I am aware that there are numerous cards purchased that never got slabbed, probably more than we will ever know, especially given the circumstances (i’m sure those printers had plenty of ink left)…
But again, my point was that there was a level of trust in CGC that made the purchase of raw cards possible to begin with, that they didn’t end up in slabs “fast enough” is completely irrelevant.
I’ll bow down from the conversation as what I was originally commenting on was my opinion that those who spent “millions” on the raw cards were not doing so knowing their purchase was in “some sort of limbo” but rather, that the cards had value because they were going to end up in CGC slabs. The buyers did due diligence to a high degree but the authenticator didn’t, that much is clear. In my opinion, they probably thought they were playing with house money because of CGC’s earlier actions.
I confess that I’m not understanding what your argument is. Yes, the biggest victims (financially) out of this would be people who spent hundreds of thousands of dollars assumably directly from Akabane, Issei, and Kimura with assurances that they would be graded from CGC. Now they have raw cards that were fake (they were defrauded) and uninsured (not graded by CGC).
I thought that’s what my original post was. What part of this are we disagreeing on?
My apologies then, i’ll clarify - it felt a bit like CGC was dodging blame there, I don’t really agree that the bad actors are any worse than CGC in this situation to a certain degree given what CGC is supposed to be/represent. It’s arguable that CGC’s publicizing/promotion of these cards allowed this situation to reach critical mass, instead of the opposite where it was nipped in the bud.
“I don’t really agree that the bad actors are any worse than CGC”
CGC could be guilty of negligence or a lack of due diligence despite whatever assurances they may have had from Akabane or their inhouse experts that reviewed them.
Negligence is not as bad as willfully defrauding people by selling fakes. I hope the actual people who printed and sold these are brought to justice.
The issue is why was there negligence? It’s because cgc yet again put publicity ahead of authenticity. They didn’t bother to check the physical age of these cards because the prototypes were their unique items only they were offering.
Also I think @jayce87 is highlighting how if these cards were never encapsulated, there wouldn’t be an avenue to successfully print and sell. Cgc was the lynchpin, similar to bbce wrapping Logan’s case.
Yeah I get that. That was never really up for debate I’ve always agreed with that fully. They jumped the gun and even if some were real, a lot more were fake and they’re on the hook for making people whole who bought their slabbed cards. My original post that Jayce questioned was simply saying that the biggest victims here aren’t people who bought slabbed cards that CGC is accountable for, it’s the unslabbed cards that people were defrauded on. People like Zack who released a statement that he was still in Japan after making another 6 figure deal for who knows what or how many cards that could potentially be fake. It’s going to be a whole lot tougher to make those victims whole than the victims who purchased a graded/authenticated card.
But isn’t there a big delta b:w BBCE authenticating wrapping that has existed and CGC directly working with Akabane himself to authenticate numerous cards? Sure, one can argue there were definitely negligent with dating the cards but with no other comparable - they defaulted to Akabane’s word, (not trying to defend CGC; they definitely should have done more to authenticate). I mean he literally signed these cards and confirmed for them were authenticate. I guess no one thought to question him
Their job is to authenticate cards, not just take the sources word. They had no problem physically authenticating protostoise. In fact that’s a perfect example, as it was in unreleased prototype, ex wotc employees gave their opinion, yet cgc still physically authenticated the card.
Based on their previous article - they mention below (screen shot)
I guess this was a lie and they didn’t do anything or they just didn’t think to perform the dot matrix test for dating - but for what it’s worth, it was enough for Gem Mint Pokemon to advertise and pump these cards up and unfortunately a lot of people bought in.
Guess we’ll never really know since so much of the origin of these cards and the process they went through for authentication is hush hush other than them coming from Akabane.
And this is my problem with the whole thing - CGC was actually on the very right track to doing the right thing here during their authentication process but likely got caught up in the prestige of it all for being able to grade these prototypes that they really took to a picture on social media and Akabane’s “trust me bro” as the final determinant sources when deciding to ultimately grade these cards.
CGC Trading Cards left no stone unturned when authenticating these rare playtest cards
First, the graders tested them using all of the state-of-the-art technology at CGC Trading Cards’ disposal to determine the inherit properties of the cards. Similar to the examination of the Test Print Blastoise cards, these cards were forensically imaged under numerous types of lighting sources.
After visual examination, the cards were also scanned using a top-of-the-line X-ray fluorescence (XRF) scanner to examine the chemical composition of the paper and ink of the cards.
The tests are very helpful in proving that the cards all originated from the same source. However, CGC Trading Cards did not have access to additional known genuine examples for forensic analysis. The research department stepped in here.
[This is where PSA would have stopped and said GTFO and where CGC should have stopped]
Instead:
CGC Trading Cards’ researchers found photos posted online by an individual intimately involved in the creation of the Pokémon TCG. The photo shows a very similar Bulbasaur, along with other early Pokémon playtest cards. Most appear to be constructed the same way with paper applied to cardstock. Finally, CGC Trading Cards conducted an interview in Japanese with a person close to the creation of the Pokémon TCG. They too confirmed that the cards were legitimate and provided information about the timing of their creation.
And…that’s it. That’s all it took. A picture on social media + a trust me bro = substantiated sources.
The fact that PFM did what he did just by being a longtime, knowledgeable collector with tools at home says a lot about CGC’s priorities in all of this. They wanted the prestige of these cards in CGC slabs and in turn buyers felt confident buying them raw. Yes, those who bought hundreds of thousands in ungraded raws are now out a large sum, but they would have never seen in that way had PFM’s findings not come to light.
Auction houses should be doubling and tripling down on CGC making this right for affected buyers because their entire existence as a company is to NOT take a “trust me bro” as proof.
